Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

[UnitedWithChrist]

And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women; and Simon also himself did believe, and, having been baptized, he was continuing with Philip, beholding also signs and mighty acts being done, he was amazed. And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John, who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, — for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized — to the name of the Lord Jesus; then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:12‭-‬17 YLT1898

Correct..the apostles had to be involved in the receipt of the Holy Spirit, in order to cause these believers to be "attached" to the central church in Jerusalem. By having the apostles lay hands upon them to receive the Holy Spirit, this sent the message that they were not to form their own separate church. With the Samaritans this was especially important due to the antagonism between them and the Jews historically.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Or perhaps just poorly taught (especially newer Christians)??



Agreed.

I believe the debate centers around, just what is meant by the phrase "But when that which is perfect is come..." (1 Corinthians 13:10a)… differing interpretations of what is meant by that. ["that which is perfect"] (Kinda reminds me of the "what happens when?" questions and/or debates )



Perhaps misinformed? Sometimes ppl get something stuck in their head a certain way, and makes it a bit more of a challenge to "unstuck" it. lol

I don't know but I hear that constantly...."you don't believe in the gifts" or even "you don't believe in the Spirit"....it's pretty wacky

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I guess I could go along with "infilling", but not a second, unique experience.

Yeah, I see "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18) as distinct from "baptized/baptism [Holy Spirit]" (Col2:12, 1Cor12:13, Rom6:3, Gal3:27, etc)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't know but I hear that constantly...."you don't believe in the gifts" or even "you don't believe in the Spirit"....it's pretty wacky

Not very careful readers/listeners, perhaps?? lol (who knows, hah). I hear it a lot too though... I think a lot of it is just, "assuming the whole when hearing the part"...(making unfounded assumptions), maybe??

 

[CherieR]

Your post distorts the cessationist position, and I believe it's intentional.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today, including speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying in terms of foretelling the future, etcetera.

So, continuationists define "the gifts" as the gifts that charismatics/Pentecostals claim they have..in other words, the above gifts. Is this because they don't acknowledge other gifts that cessationists identify with, including teaching, encouragement, administration, etcetera?

Because, if they claim cessationists don't believe in "the gifts", then apparently they are defining "the gifts" as those handful of gifts, and aren't acknowledging that there are other gifts.

Why don't you believe in "the gifts"?

Notice, folks, that he's claiming cessationists have committed the "unpardonable sin" because they don't hold the same position as him. That's another typical trait of charismatics/Pentecostals....to scare others with the "unpardonable sin".

Actually, the unpardonable sin applied to the Pharisees, who claimed that Jesus was doing certain works such as healings through Satan's power....it says nothing about doubting folks falling on the floor and flopping like a fish for hours, barking like dogs, laughing maniacally, claiming they are healing slightly longer legs while shifting the person's shoe down, claiming to go into morgues and raise the dead, speaking in tongues, etcetera.

So, to repeat my question, why do you claim cessationlsts don't believe in "the gifts" when the topic of discussion relates to false charismatic/Pentecostal behavior? Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts? If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

I think honesty would be one of the characteristics that a Christian would possess.

I believe you are misrepresenting some Pentecostals here. I have been around people who believed in speaking in tongues and they were not the type of people who believe in barking like dogs, flopping like a fish, and faking miracles. These examples are way extreme for many people whether or not you believe in tongues.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I believe you are misrepresenting some Pentecostals here. I have been around people who believed in speaking in tongues and they were not the type of people who believe in barking like dogs, flopping like a fish, and faking miracles. These examples are way extreme for many people whether or not you believe in tongues.

I realize there is a wide variety within Pentecostalism..however many of them say that non-Pentecostals don't believe in "the gifts", or even, they don't believe in "the Spirit", because they don't believe these gifts are in use today. I don't really see Pentecostals seeking to correct their fellow Pentecostals on these matters.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

The power of God working in his church is the regenerative work of his word given to us through preaching of his word through baptism and through Holy Communion.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So, do you deny that Pentecostals teach a person must have a "second experience" in order to be an effective Christian?

Here's a Gotquestions article on the topic:

https://www.gotquestions.org/second-blessing.html

It is related to John Wesley's teaching and his claim of sinless perfectionism, but is also connected with empowerment for preaching the gospel and "speaking in tongues" in some circles.

I have talked with several charismatics/Pentecostals, including one that I served with, about this. He wouldn't openly admit that I, as a non-Pentecostal, am spiritually inferior, but his words indirectly betrayed it. I have also heard various charismatics/Pentecostals claim that they were spirit-filled people, inferring that others were not.

GotQuestions is not a site that advocates spritual gifts

they believe tongues are not for today

I use GotQuestions myself, but they are not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

so you talked with several Charismatics/Pentecostals?

really? a whole 'several'?

you do not seem to realize what is going on in the world in general and obviously in the US.

you also do not understand the term 'spirit filled'. you do not acknowledge the fact that the book of Acts clearly demonstrates that even though some were saved, well for that matter so were all the Apostles and those with them, they were NOT filled with the Holy Spiritn and received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as SECOND experience

this is not a 'two tier' system. this is available for all believers

but as with salvation, you can turn around and walk away from it

as you declare youself to be doing

you claim knowledge of something you actually do not understand and like quite a number of others before you, wish to belittle and insult those who are baptised in the Holy Spirit

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

GotQuestions is not a site that advocates spritual gifts

they believe tongues are not for today

I use GotQuestions myself, but they are not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

so you talked with several Charismatics/Pentecostals?

really? a whole 'several'?

you do not seem to realize what is going on in the world in general and obviously in the US.

you also do not understand the term 'spirit filled'. you do not acknowledge the fact that the book of Acts clearly demonstrates that even though some were saved, well for that matter so were all the Apostles and those with them, they were NOT filled with the Holy Spiritn and received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as SECOND experience

this is not a 'two tier' system. this is available for all believers

but as with salvation, you can turn around and walk away from it

as you declare youself to be doing

you claim knowledge of something you actually do not understand and like quite a number of others before you, wish to belittle and insult those who are baptised in the Holy Spirit

Gotquestions.org is influenced heavily by Calvary Chapel, and they lean toward the charismatic extreme. They don't allow their members to exercise kookiness in services, though.

I am an American and my understanding has been gathered by talking to charismatics in a parachurch ministry. In fact, the leader of the parachurch ministry is charismatic/Pentecostal (part of Assemblies of God) and when I confronted him about what he thought about me as a non-charismatic, he said, well, I think you will come along someday. In other words, he thinks I'm going to get "baptized in the Spirit" and start speaking in tongues. I thought, don't hold your breath.

By the way he's also a KJVer and practices casting demons out of individuals that are simply drug addicts.

It is used as a two-tier system. Go back up and read the comments. One person plainly stated that the non-Pentecostal can't pray in the Spirit.

It isn't just being baptized in the Spirit..there are other two-tier systems demonstrated within those circles...another is declaring yourself to be a prophet or apostle. Pride and immaturity are rife in charismatic/Pentecostal circles, with various attempts to garner credibility by claiming certain gifts or offices. I would never be associated with them.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Your post distorts the cessationist position, and I believe it's intentional.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today, including speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying in terms of foretelling the future, etcetera.

So, continuationists define "the gifts" as the gifts that charismatics/Pentecostals claim they have..in other words, the above gifts. Is this because they don't acknowledge other gifts that cessationists identify with, including teaching, encouragement, administration, etcetera?

Because, if they claim cessationists don't believe in "the gifts", then apparently they are defining "the gifts" as those handful of gifts, and aren't acknowledging that there are other gifts.

Why don't you believe in "the gifts"?

Notice, folks, that he's claiming cessationists have committed the "unpardonable sin" because they don't hold the same position as him. That's another typical trait of charismatics/Pentecostals....to scare others with the "unpardonable sin".

Actually, the unpardonable sin applied to the Pharisees, who claimed that Jesus was doing certain works such as healings through Satan's power....it says nothing about doubting folks falling on the floor and flopping like a fish for hours, barking like dogs, laughing maniacally, claiming they are healing slightly longer legs while shifting the person's shoe down, claiming to go into morgues and raise the dead, speaking in tongues, etcetera.

So, to repeat my question, why do you claim cessationlsts don't believe in "the gifts" when the topic of discussion relates to false charismatic/Pentecostal behavior? Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts? If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

I think honesty would be one of the characteristics that a Christian would possess.

how are your remarks in bold type above helpful? I have never been in any service where any of that abherrant behavior would be tolerated

we have extremes it seems, at both ends. we cessationists who think the gifts are only about teaching because that would be a respectable gift and then we have the other end where anything goes and neither position is correct

your posts are sadly lacking in scriptural support but of course, are well rounded in heresay and and negative reports that I am willing to bet, you cannot support from personal experience...well other than talking to several spirit filled folks of course

I do not think you are in a place to talk about honesty with a straight face, let alone telling others they are not truthful

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Gotquestions.org is influenced heavily by Calvary Chapel, and they lean toward the charismatic extreme. They don't allow their members to exercise kookiness in services, though.

I am an American and my understanding has been gathered by talking to charismatics in a parachurch ministry. In fact, the leader of the parachurch ministry is charismatic/Pentecostal (part of Assemblies of God) and when I confronted him about what he thought about me as a non-charismatic, he said, well, I think you will come along someday. In other words, he thinks I'm going to get "baptized in the Spirit" and start speaking in tongues. I thought, don't hold your breath.

By the way he's also a KJVer and practices casting demons out of individuals that are simply drug addicts.

It is used as a two-tier system. Go back up and read the comments. One person plainly stated that the non-Pentecostal can't pray in the Spirit.

It isn't just being baptized in the Spirit..there are other two-tier systems demonstrated within those circles...another is declaring yourself to be a prophet or apostle. Pride and immaturity are rife in charismatic/Pentecostal circles, with various attempts to garner credibility by claiming certain gifts or offices. I would never be associated with them.

actually Calvary Chapel is not extreme. I know that because I have in the past attended them....in CA and FL

honestly dude, you are just blowing smoke now and it is typical of anti spiritual gifts people

as far as Got Questions goes you are incorrect

here is there statement of faith concerning the gifts of the Spirit:

Section 4: The Holy Spirit
We believe in the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4). He regenerates sinners (Titus 3:5) and indwells believers (Romans 8:9). He is the agent by whom Christ baptizes all believers into His body (1 Corinthians 12:12-14). He is the seal by whom the Father guarantees the salvation of believers unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14). He is the Divine Teacher who illumines believers' hearts and minds as they study the Word of God (1 Corinthians 2:9-12).

We believe that the Holy Spirit is ultimately sovereign in the distribution of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). We believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, while by no means outside of the Spirit's ability to empower, no longer function to the same degree they did in the early development of the church (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20; 4:7-12).

it seems you are just swinging a stick around and hoping to hit something

your words that you 'confronted' a pastor stand out to me. it seems you also have an attitude

listen, you are just one more in a long line of people who are not satisfied that they do not believe large portions of scripture

you also believe you have some kind of unction to destroy the credibility of anyone who does believe those portions of scripture

you are not a teacher and not very good at deciminating facts considering in this post alone you try to give credibility to untrue statements

your strength seems to be hearsay and you would like us to believe you because you said so

 

[7seasrekeyed]

if anyone believes that the site GotQuestions is supportive of all the gifts of the Spirit, you are in for a rude awakening

here is an excerpt from their stance on 'tongues'

Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge “ceasing” and that of tongues “being ceased” as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the “perfect.” While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased. source

with regards to the nonsense above regarding the judging of Israel, I find that scripure is totally non supportive of that view but there are several members in the forum here who do support it

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yeah, I see "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18) as distinct from "baptized/baptism [Holy Spirit]" (Col2:12, 1Cor12:13, Rom6:3, Gal3:27, etc)

Right..

I like you even if you are a dispy

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Correct..the apostles had to be involved in the receipt of the Holy Spirit, in order to cause these believers to be "attached" to the central church in Jerusalem. By having the apostles lay hands upon them to receive the Holy Spirit, this sent the message that they were not to form their own separate church. With the Samaritans this was especially important due to the antagonism between them and the Jews historically.

how do you explain Paul?

you do not seem to be aware that Gentiles also received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

how do you explain Paul?

you do not seem to be aware that Gentiles also received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues

I'm not sure what you're talking about..of course I understand Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues afterwards.

Again, this connected them with the Jerusalem church, and affirmed to the Jews that they received the Holy Spirit in like manner as they did, therefore they were to be considered brothers in Christ.

Speaking in tongues affirmed their unity with the Jerusalem Christians...and also affirmed that the apostles were their authority figures. They were not to go out seeking to form their own Gentile church, but were to respond to the leadership of the apostles.

You should read New Wine..it dispels a lot of the Pentecostal/charismatic/cultic kookiness.

Acts is a period of transition. It is not normative.

This is easily evidenced by the tongues of fire coming down on the heads of the recipients in Acts 2. Only the kookiest of charismatics/Pentecostals claims visual evidences like this are still occurring.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm not sure what you're talking about..of course I understand Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues afterwards.

Again, this connected them with the Jerusalem church, and affirmed to the Jews that they received the Holy Spirit in like manner as they did, therefore they were to be considered brothers in Christ.

Speaking in tongues affirmed their unity with the Jerusalem Christians...and also affirmed that the apostles were their authority figures. They were not to go out seeking to form their own Gentile church, but were to respond to the leadership of the apostles.

You should read New Wine..it dispels a lot of the Pentecostal/charismatic/cultic kookiness.

Acts is a period of transition. It is not normative.

This is easily evidenced by the tongues of fire coming down on the heads of the recipients in Acts 2. Only the kookiest of charismatics/Pentecostals claims visual evidences like this are still occurring.

you should read AUTHENTIC FIRE by Michael Brown, PhD

it would help your understanding of not only Acts, but the work of the Holy Spirit throughout the NT

at this moment, you have simply followed the incorrect teaching of cessationists

you have posted about what you consider an attitude of superiority coming from those who speak in tongues or speak of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, while exhibiting a similar attitude at the other end of the spectrum

even the title of your op is insulting but it also reveals a dire lack of knowledge of the subject matter you choose to post about

well, you will no more make an indent here than the others who have done the same as you

 

[crossnote]

the broad brush strokes of 'sloppy exegesis' really are not accurate and not appreciated

to state ALL of ANY group is poor communication and alienates many people

in fact, cessationists who have attended the strange fire conference and or read the book, have been puzzled at MacArthur's all inclusive demonic labelling and deception dunking

I don't care about alienating people if Truth stays intact. (Jn 6:66-67).
Of course I was speaking generally, as there are always a few exceptions. I'm not dumb enough to use a broadbrush.

 

[crossnote]

Your experience sounds like regeneration to me. I acknowledge regeneration. I don't acknowledge the "second blessing", which is what I'm criticizing.

The regeneration happened in Dec '72. Call it whatever you want what happened in Mar '74 (15 months later). It definitely was a baptism in the Spirit leaving lasting memories 45 years later.

 

[TheLearner]

II Peter 1

 

[Waggles]

@UnitedWithChrist
In the end no one cares what you blog on CC
In the real world hundreds of thousands of people from every continent are being converted by the preaching of the full gospel
of salvation -
repentance from dead works and their dead religions
water baptism by full immersion confessing their faith in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer
(for the forgiveness of their sins)
baptism in the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of praying in tongues
transformed lives
miracles, healings, blessings, joy and peace

Your unbelief in Pentecost is completely irrelevant to the wonderful works being done by God to increase his Church,
the Spirit-filled Church, in these very last of days.