OSAS= House Built on Sand
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Hi JPT,
When I was new in the faith, I am told to have a Bible Study at my own and suggested to use the basic method which considers the ff:
- To whom the passage is talking about?
- Who is being spoken to the passage?
- What do the particular word/phrase represents?
- Where it did happen? etc…etc…
Luke 15:1-7
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
- Who is speaking? No doubt it’s Christ.
- To whom Christ is speaking about this parable? Well, verse 3, says “unto them”
- Who are these “unto them”? They were the publicans (tax collectors) and sinners (outcast) but the Pharisees (self-righteous) and the scribes were also there.
- What does the one (1) sheep described and represents? According to Jesus, this sheep was lost but it was found and this represent the “sinner that repenteth.”
- What does the ninety and nine (99) described and represents? They were in the wilderness and they were persons which need no repentance perhaps they were the Pharisees who are self-righteous. Actually in the bible, Jesus addressed the Pharisees as righteous..
- So, your question seems to be tricky but actually is very simple and it can be answered right away. The lost sheep which represent the sinner that repented therefore is saved.
- Are the ninety and nine saved? No. Take note however, that these sheep altogether 1+99 =100 were both in the wilderness. They were not in the green pasture.
U
UnderGrace
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R
Ralph-
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R
Ralph-
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Did you know that's what the 'hyper' means in Hypergrace. Supposedly, grace hyper-extends to the point that it will save an ex-believer who doesn't want to be forgiven anymore into a kingdom and an inheritance and a salvation he doesn't want anymore. Ten years ago you would have been laughed at for suggesting such a thing. Now almost everyone I talk to who believes in 'once saved always saved' believes in this horrible distortion of God's grace. It used to be believed by 'once saved always saved' people that if you fell away you aren't saved and were never really saved to begin with.You really should not distort the grace of Godto make it fit your faulty system
Yes!
"As long as it still belives".. THAT is saying that youre only His sheep IF..doesnt work that way..thats 'works" related...HE LOVES US REGARDLESS...[/QUOTE]
I know this is going to tick some people off, I am sorry, but I have to agree with ralph on these points- salvation is guaranteed to those who believe, but only to those who continually believe. when we accept Christ as Lord and savior, we are saved. not by works, not by law/command keeping, but by faith.
but, as freely as we chose to accept, we can one day choose to reject. accepting Christ does NOT nullify our free will, which God gave us all.
now, I do believe that if one truly accepts Christ , then they will not turn away. but, as Paul said, if we confess with our mouth AND believe in our hearts, then we are saved. two pronged,
I detest legalism , I detest works salvationism, but, faith and belief is a trail to walk, not a train to ride for free,
we are saved by God's grace only, but we must, with our free will, accept and believe.
a one time confession of faith, then followed by caring nothing about confessing and repenting of sin, and not striving to live a Holy life is not a proper relastionship with Jesus.
nothing can separate us from Christ, as Paul said in Romans, but we must have faith in Him. not a one time profession, but a continual faith.
More opinion with no scripture.
I give you three scriptures that teach us the same thing and all you can do is make excuses.
That is the basic theology of those who promote false doctrine.
When you can actually address the scriptures and the principles being taught let me know.
JPT
Ok. So you believe a lost sheep is saved.
In your understanding there was s no difference in a sheep who is lost and one who is found, so why does anyone need to go after a sheep that is lost?
JPT
Green pasture?
What in the world are you talking about.
The sheep that were not lost are not saved, but the sheep who is love st is saved.
That is 100 percent backwards.
JPT
Yes. So only His disciples would understand and not the crowds or the Pharisees.
All the twisting and explaining away will not make lost mean anything other than lost; unjust, unsaved, unreconciled.
JPT
Funny thing is all are saved by works, but seem not to want to admit it.
Anyone who is baptized was saved by the work of being baptized.
This is not the sort James is speaking about. By themselves, "works" do not save you. It is God's grace that you receive when you are saved that *compels* you to do good works. Which is why James can say "faith without works is dead." Even Paul repeatedly mentions good works and clearly states his *work* of preaching is a compulsion he cannot fight.
Those who have no works to show for their faith have not the compulsion to do so. That compulsion is the mark of the truly saved.
I do not perform works to be saved.
I perform works *because* I am saved.
Anyone who is baptized was saved by the work of being baptized.
This is not the sort James is speaking about. By themselves, "works" do not save you. It is God's grace that you receive when you are saved that *compels* you to do good works. Which is why James can say "faith without works is dead." Even Paul repeatedly mentions good works and clearly states his *work* of preaching is a compulsion he cannot fight.
Those who have no works to show for their faith have not the compulsion to do so. That compulsion is the mark of the truly saved.
I do not perform works to be saved.
I perform works *because* I am saved.
Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, sinner or saint?
JPT
Depends if he falls off a cliff or gets eaten by a wolf before he is found.
Hence, the one who endures to the end will be saved.
The parable in Matt 18:12-14 answered to the question asked by the disciples "who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (vs 1).
In vs 4, Jesus told His disciples whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Humbleness (humility) is of great value to us. A lot of people dismiss children and ignore them as not worthy of attention. Jesus gives a different perspective. And when it comes down to it, look at the humility of Jesus - He humbled Himself, even unto death ... the horrifying and shameful death of the cross.
Jesus was not rebuking/reproving His disciples in Matt 18. They asked Him a question and He answered it, telling them that they were to esteem others better than themselves ... even "others" who were little children.
Now contrast the instruction in Matt 18 with what Jesus told the pharisees and scribes in Luke 15.
The pharisees and scribes were not humble in the least. They thought they were better than the publicans and sinners with whom they would not associate. Nor would they associate with the Lord Jesus Christ because He received the publicans and sinners and ate with them.
In Luke 15:7 Jesus told them there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents more than over the 99 who thought they were better than the sinner (think of the pharisee in Luke 18:11 who thanked God that he was not like others. that is the mindset we're dealing with when it comes to the pharisees and scribes of Luke 15).
Notice in Matt 18, only the owner of the sheep rejoiced.
I always wondered about Luke 15:7. I thought why wouldn't they (those in heaven) be joyful over someone who had no need of repentance. Wouldn't they be just as joyful about that? Then it dawned on me ... all are in need of repentance and those who believe they do not need repentance are the ones who really are in need but because they are so blind to their dilemma they can't see their need and actually think they are better than those who readily admit they are in need of a savior.
And when you tie all the parables of Luke 15-16 together and come to understand the point Jesus made in Luke 16:15, that the parables are not directed at the sinner, but at those who believe they are better than the sinner, it makes perfect sense that those who believe themselves to be more righteous than others are those who hold out for that which is highly esteemed among men, and that is abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15), therefore, no joy in heaven for those who believe they "need no repentance".
Actually, all your "twisting and explaining away" will not change the fact that the parables of Luke 15 were spoken to the pharisees and scribes to reprove and rebuke them for their behavior (even though you seem to think Jesus needed to speak in parables to let everyone know the sinner needs to repent.
).Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
At the same time Jesus told the pharisees and scribes the parables of Luke 15, He also told them about the rich man and Lazarus:
Luke 16:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
So what's the point of telling the pharisees about the rich man and Lazarus?
We must be careful that we do not follow the example of the pharisees and scribes. They had an outward appearance of following the word of God (needed no repentance), but inwardly they resisted God's Word and, through their resistance, denied it.
Hi JPT,
Think again the sheep were in the wilderness as the the Jesus said and they were not in a green pasture land. Notice in Psalms 23 where in the context that the sheep is own by the Shepherd that it says, he laid them in the green pasture but not with this one. The sheep in the context were all sinners, the lost one which represents the repentant sinner saved after he was found and the self righteous Pharisees who do not need repentance. Any problem over there? Just because, the word "sheep" was used by the Lord that it means they are already saved? Umm we have such a word as pastor, priest, bishop, prophet/s etc but they can be both apply to the true and the false, the saved and the unsaved. In the context if you may I suggest to re-read verses 1-3.
Psalms 23
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
R...,
You seem to know what hypergrace is/means. Please explain it for others understanding.
Is there scripture which supports it or is it another ...new age religion...thing appearing after the 1960's.?
I have only heard the term recently.
Both of these parables about the lost sheep proclaim God’s upcoming plan for salvation.
That through the blood of Jesus salvation will be available to all people regardless of religious pedigree. The Jewish leaders not believing and not excepting God’s plan have no understanding that the lost will be made Righteous by this fellow named Jesus. Jesus is informing them through parables the process has already begun and will soon be completed.
Most all the parables found in the gospels have this same message, salvation through Jesus the Christ is coming like it or not!
That through the blood of Jesus salvation will be available to all people regardless of religious pedigree. The Jewish leaders not believing and not excepting God’s plan have no understanding that the lost will be made Righteous by this fellow named Jesus. Jesus is informing them through parables the process has already begun and will soon be completed.
Most all the parables found in the gospels have this same message, salvation through Jesus the Christ is coming like it or not!
Since you've kind of gone round and round with so many on this, it might be helpful for you to tell us what "lost" means to you for the born again Child of God.
Remember, we're talking about a saved Child of God, NOT someone who has never been saved to begin with.
R
Ralph-
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It's probably more well known by it's other name - Freegrace. It teaches that you can even stop believing all together and you are still saved. I don't know exactly when it reared it's ugly head in the church but it's become very popular in the last few years. You can see right away how vastly different and contradictory this new 'once saved always saved' view is compared to the traditional Calvinistic 'once saved always saved' view which says the person who stops believing was never really saved to begin with. I see more and more people going with the new version of 'once saved always saved'. It effectively relieves the believer of all responsibility to live for Christ in a continuing faith.