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You have added a word that is not used in this parable.
It's a simple question.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
Do the 100 sheep belong to the shepherd?
Yes or No?
Sheep = Church
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
- If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
- “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
JPT
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Believe means trust and commit to obey.
Without obeying the Gospel no one is saved.
The sheep who hears His voice comes to Him in obedience to the Voice [repent] of the Shepherd.
The sheep who follows Him, does so in obedience to His voice.
That is what hear [hearken] means in hear My Voice.
- My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Hear with the motive of doing what is heard.
Jesus used this word also in the context of the parable of the lost sheep.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
JPT
Sheep are used all through Scripture by Jesus to describe God's Children that He loves. You want to yank a passage here, and twist a passage there, instead of considering the WHOLE counsel of God. That is the idiom He consistently uses. So why won't you answer the question.
Do some Sheep morph into goats at the judgement?
Do some Sheep morph into goats at the judgement?
I see you don't even understand the Gospel or what it means to be saved by faith.
I gave you scriptures.
Do you believe what the scriptures say?
I will give you another if you like.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
Please tell me which of these two actions produces salvation:
Believing?
or
Confessing Jesus as Lord?
Do you know what the command of the Gospel is that must be obeyed?
I'll give you a hint, it is found in the parable of the lost sheep.
JPT
You are still pushing forward your idea what the parable is about, but your idea does not correspond to context.
its about Israel, not about Church. Lost sheep = sinners and tax collectors. "Not lost" sheep = Pharisees and scribes.
Its a reaction to complaints of Pharisees (thinking they are righteous) about Jesus accepting sinners (people not living according to Law).
Yes. All sheep belonged to God. Israel was elected by God to be His nation till Christ.
This parable has nothing to do with OSAS, church, individual salvation.
its about Israel, not about Church. Lost sheep = sinners and tax collectors. "Not lost" sheep = Pharisees and scribes.
Its a reaction to complaints of Pharisees (thinking they are righteous) about Jesus accepting sinners (people not living according to Law).
Yes. All sheep belonged to God. Israel was elected by God to be His nation till Christ.
This parable has nothing to do with OSAS, church, individual salvation.
Please show me from this post where I have "yanked" a passgage out of context?
The Shepherd has 100 sheep that belong to him.
They belong to the Shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
- Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
- If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
- “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
- Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
- and someone turns him back
- let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
- will save a soul from death
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Personal Instructions
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
Looking at the word forsaken in the NT. Am thinking that keeping our first love for Jesus and our watching for His coming is what we must guard against losing. I cannot fathom a person who has experienced the new birth and Holy Spirit baptism, to come to unbelief.
But, I can see that the trials we go through could weaken our faith to take our eyes off our reward and turn back to the world.
So we guard our heart. Stay in communion with Him. If we stray, He will go after us. If we keep straying I believe He takes us before our time.
Personally, I don't want to come before Him in that state. And everyone of us will come before Him. Even those who rejected Him. Every knee bows.
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Personal Instructions
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
Looking at the word forsaken in the NT. Am thinking that keeping our first love for Jesus and our watching for His coming is what we must guard against losing. I cannot fathom a person who has experienced the new birth and Holy Spirit baptism, to come to unbelief.
But, I can see that the trials we go through could weaken our faith to take our eyes off our reward and turn back to the world.
So we guard our heart. Stay in communion with Him. If we stray, He will go after us. If we keep straying I believe He takes us before our time.
Personally, I don't want to come before Him in that state. And everyone of us will come before Him. Even those who rejected Him. Every knee bows.
Please show me from this post where I have "yanked" a passgage out of context?
The Shepherd has 100 sheep that belong to him.
They belong to the Shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
The Shepherd has 100 sheep that belong to him.
They belong to the Shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
- Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
- If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
- “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
- Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
- and someone turns him back
- let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
- will save a soul from death
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
Are you unable to compute my question?
Do some sheep morph into goats at the judgement seat?
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You are adding your own words to the scripture that are not there.
Why?
Where does the word Israel appear in these passages?
The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
- Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
- If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
- “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
- Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
- and someone turns him back
- let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
- will save a soul from death
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
Can you understand what post the scripture that you want to discuss, means?
If you have a scripture that pertains to goats, then post it for discussion.
Meanwhile, the scripture we are discussing does not contain the word goats.
You still have an unanswered question.
Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, saint or sinner?
JPT
R
By the way, traditional Calvinistic 'once saved always saved' did not make God's grace a license to sin. It is this weird step-sister of Calvin's 'once saved always saved' doctrine called Hyper/Free-grace that is making grace a license to sin and leading countless people to the deceit of another gospel.
I'm not seeing Calvin's doctrine of 'once saved always saved' being pushed anymore in it's original form. I'm seeing this contradictory doctrine pushed where true believers never leave at the same time that those who do leave are still saved. Pretty contradictory. Most people haven't thought through their own version of 'once saved always saved'. They just know they want to have it so they can not lose their salvation no matter what and can be relieved of any and all responsibility for actually living for Christ.
I'm not seeing Calvin's doctrine of 'once saved always saved' being pushed anymore in it's original form. I'm seeing this contradictory doctrine pushed where true believers never leave at the same time that those who do leave are still saved. Pretty contradictory. Most people haven't thought through their own version of 'once saved always saved'. They just know they want to have it so they can not lose their salvation no matter what and can be relieved of any and all responsibility for actually living for Christ.
You are adding your own words to the scripture that are not there.
Why?
Where does the word Israel appear in these passages?
The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
Why?
Where does the word Israel appear in these passages?
The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
- Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!
Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.
Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.
Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
- If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:
- “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
- Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
- and someone turns him back
- let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
- will save a soul from death
Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.
Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.
JPT
You have a specific agenda and this agenda does not allow you to be more flexible and actually listen to what we are saying.
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