But I only mentioned Paul because of the Grace doctrine and You pointed out Peter. Not sure about this other stuff. Not sure why this is such a big deal. We have Her now seeing Jesus did not end the Law and now we are letting Her off the hook by getting on to this other tangent.
Orthodox Jew answers a few questions
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Peter and James... despite your erroneous claim that Paul alone taught the doctrine/s being discussed.
Other issues naturally enter any (or at least many) conversation(s).
I do not care if I am wrong because I am right about Her thinking Jesus ended the Law. That is the only thing important here!!
As You can see, Christians cannot even get along enough to convince You that Jesus did not end the Law. I apologize to You. That is not who I am.
No one is promoting the Law here. The presented issue was that Jesus ended the Law so He cannot be the Messiah. I said Paul is the main reason. Does is really matter if Peter and James chimed in knowing that Paul wrote 13 letters? Does any other info matter or is the only thing that matters is "proving" that Jesus is the Messiah. Why does She care about about Peter, Paul, and James? She only cares that Jesus is/is not the Messiah. To everything else, Magenta is correct. But my only real intention is to explain that Jesus is the Messiah. And that Jesus "did not" end the Law.
To Aviva, I will give this response and get back to the point of "our discussion."
Magenta, it is impossible to keep our salvation because it took God to give us what we need in order to believe in Him. He gave us the Faith that leads to belief. The one thing I do notice about the OSAS understanding outside of those who make it a license to sin is they claim to love God. If You love God, why would You not want to confess sins and be sinless like He wants from His Bride, "without spot nor wrinkle?"
Magenta, it is impossible to keep our salvation because it took God to give us what we need in order to believe in Him. He gave us the Faith that leads to belief. The one thing I do notice about the OSAS understanding outside of those who make it a license to sin is they claim to love God. If You love God, why would You not want to confess sins and be sinless like He wants from His Bride, "without spot nor wrinkle?"
I showed You that Jesus did not end the Law or command that it had ended. And You can see it was several who later on made claims towards it. So Jesus did not end the Law and He did not promote the worship of other gods nor did He reject the Torah.
Are there other claims about Jesus so I can answer them?
I have said nothing at all against that.
Though being clothed in HIS righteousness is what allows God
to see me (or anyone else) without spot or wrinkle, as you say.
To alert someone without quoting them, you must put the @ symbol in front of their name.
That is, if you want to draw their attention to your post .
. @uncle_mike You never did a thing wrong. Suddenly because I used Paul, several users immediately had to correct me which is fine. But it got us totally away from Her sincere question about Jesus. I thought immediately about a man who could not walk for 38 years and Jesus heals him. The Pharisees weren't mad that Jesus healed the man, they were mad because he picked up his mat on the Sabbath. And I was like we are missing this opportunity over who is right and wrong. But You never did anything wrong.I have said nothing at all against that.
Though being clothed in HIS righteousness is what allows God
to see me (or anyone else) without spot or wrinkle, as you say.
To alert someone without quoting them, you must put the @ symbol in front of their name.
That is, if you want to draw their attention to your post .
What about the book of Hebrews?
It is the revelation that Jesus was our Passover lamb (gospels) that was the basis to say He fulfilled the offerings in Leviticus.
It was the book of Acts where we saw that Paul was not permitted to complete the Nazarite vow with the sacrifice of an animal. This led to him being imprisoned and getting the revelation that he laid out in his epistles.
So although Paul was the one that laid out the doctrine in great detail I believe it can be gathered from the gospels and the book of Acts and the OT without using Paul.
Discovering the law of gravity is not the same thing as inventing the law of gravity. Paul discovered what was there in the word of God. And this can be independently verified without his writings.
I am not disagreeing. But sit in any sermon and You will continually hear Paul this and that. I just gave the easy answer. I did not expect to get a flood of other people but a simple yes, he is one of them. But I am grateful for the extra additions because it clearly shows it "was not" Jesus, but those "after" Jesus to make this claim.
Hello aviva, sorry for the late reply on this post, it is easy to demonstrate that Jesus does not promote the following of other GODs, but I cannot prove it here it would be too long a post , however if you read the books of John, Mark, Luke and Matthews and look carefully at what Jesus said and did, you will see that he meets all the requirements of Deut.13:1-5. Also many prophecy in the Torah and prophets prove Jesus is the messiah, I will gladly answer any questions you have.
Concerning the writings of Paul, his teachings are difficult to understand and they lead to confusion, it is why you see people arguing back and forth on this thread.
Lastly, many here are from the lost tribes of Israel, I have learned by an expert on genealogy that my ancestors are from the tribe of Benjamin.
Blessings
I was curious and so just ask.... In post #402,pg.21 where she ask if Christians followed all the laws in the Torah do you think she meant the Torah meaning the first five books or all of the "laws of Moses"? Why I ask is that in the Torah in Genesis 9 there is an covenant with the descendants of Noah https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/9.htm and then afterwards there is the "law of Moses" given to the Hebrews after the exodus. So was the Law of Moses given to every tribe on the earth or to those who came out of bondage in Egypt? In Deuteronomy 2 the Children of Esau(descendant of Abraham) dwelt in Sier and Lot's(Abraham's nephew) children in Moab and so they were never in captivity do they honer the Passover feast when they were never involved in it? The Greeks,the Egyptians, the Persians the tribe of Ishmael? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/2.htm
So do you see "The Torah" as the Law of Moses given to the Hebrews after the exodus from Egypt,, or is the Torah the first five Books?
I imagine She would look at non Jews following Jewish idealism like we see Rahab, Ruth, and others who basically were grafted in.
Hmm,,I'm not sure which is why I ask her in the next post but probably wont find out until after sundown... I was asking you what you thought because of what some of the Jews said in John 8:33 in that they were children of Abraham but they had "never been in bondage"... Now there were a lot of Esau's descendants who were forced to convert to Judaism(John Hyrcanus) and so if these Jews in John 8 were Edomites they would not have been in bondage in Egypt for instance but still be descended from Abraham(see Deuteronomy 2)....
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8.htm
https://www.oxfordreference.com/dis...199730049.001.0001/acref-9780199730049-e-0734
Yes Jesus was consistent with the Torah in every way, and He was also aware that He was fulfilling the prophecy of Moses concerning Him: 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;... 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deut 18:15-19)
Did Christ confirm this to the unbelieving Jews of His time? Absolutely. 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)
You are no different than those unbelieving Jews who actually did NOT believe the Torah and what Moses said about Christ.
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