Orthodox Jew answers a few questions

[PennEd]

I find your tone demanding and and tinged with hostility which is why I responded the way I did. "Reading someone's mind" is like what ThyKingdomComeSoon did by saying "You think this, and you believe this and said this because you know this..." basically declaring one's state of mind based on nothing but his own opinions.

This is EXACTLY what you are doing by trying to interpret my tone.

Putting a word in quotes means you disagree with the persons assertions.

Again. You are putting YOUR interpretation on something meant to clarify a remark.

You are doing alot of assuming.

The question itself was reasonable as it relates precisely to your OP.

So. Putting all that aside, what misinformation is it that you think we have toward Orthodox Jews? Which, BTW, are a group of people I have defended over and over again through the yrs.

 

[Aviva]

How strongly do the Israeli people support rebuilding the temple? Do Orthodox Jews fully support the rebuilding or are there diverse opinions? Do you believe the current war will lead to an increased effort to rebuild?

Without making a very long post, in a nutshell that will never happen in the current state of things. In order to rebuild the temple we'd have to destroy the dome of the rock which would enrage the Islamic world and cause a war like you wouldn't believe. We believe the Messiah will rebuild it after he establishes world peace.

Isaiah 2

1. The word that Isaiah, son of Amoz, prophesied concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
3. And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Only when this happens could the dome be safely removed, because people will have the Torah written in their hearts and want to.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My original post said why I came here. Do people just not read threads? If I'm asked to go, I'll go.

I know what you said initially. People may not always give all the reasons for visiting here but that's no problem. And you are more than welcome to visit and make friends as long as you wish.

 

[Aviva]

I know what you said initially. People may not always give all the reasons for visiting here but that's no problem. And you are more than welcome to visit and make friends as long as you wish.

Fair enough. There's no deeper reason.

 

[Deuteronomy]

As the title says, I'm an Orthodox Jewish woman. My Christian sister in law asked me to post a little about us since the subject has come up recently due to recent world issues to answer some confusion/misinformation.
1. Why don't you have sacrifices?
A. Because they can only be done at the temple in Jerusalem buy a Levitical priest. Since the temple no longer exists we can no longer do this.
2. How do you get forgiveness?
A. repent and make restitution, depending on the offended party. (G-d, a person, etc...)

Hello Aviva, first off, welcome to CChat! Thank you for joining us, and for taking the time to help us understand what Jews believe and why, and for answering the questions that we have too

Like many of the other members, I already have a few questions for you, the first of which concerns Q & A #'s 1 & 2 from your OP, so here we go.

The animal sacrifices were eventually made in the Temple (once it/they were built, that is) but, prior to that, they were always made on the go, wherever camp was made/wherever the Tent of Meeting was set up. So, considering the vital importance of the sacrifices, why was the Tent of Meeting not set up again so that the sacrifices could continue (so that the sins of the people, both collectively and individually, could still be forgiven by God)

I know that this was done for several years (the continuation of the sacrifices, that is) following the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, but it was eventually stopped, and the forgiveness of sins (under the new teaching of Rabbinic Judaism) became something that could be had from God simply for the asking (confession/repentance, as you said in the OP).

My question is, if this rabbinic teaching is true, that our sins can truly be forgiven by God in this manner (nowadays), then why were the animal sacrifices EVER required by Him to receive forgiveness from the get-go

Thank you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

 

[Aviva]

Hello Aviva, first off, welcome to CChat! Thank you for joining us, and for taking the time to help us understand what Jews believe and why, and for answering the questions that we have too

Like many of the other members, I already have a few questions for you, the first of which concerns Q & A #'s 1 & 2 from your OP, so here we go.

The animal sacrifices were eventually made in the Temple (once it/they were built, that is) but, prior to that, they were always made on the go, wherever camp was made/wherever the Tent of Meeting was set up. So, considering the vital importance of the sacrifices, why was the Tent of Meeting not set up again so that the sacrifices could continue (so that the sins of the people, both collectively and individually, could still be forgiven by God)

I know that this was done for several years (the continuation of the sacrifices, that is) following the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, but it was eventually stopped, and the forgiveness of sins (under the new teaching of Rabbinic Judaism) became something that could be had from God simply for the asking (confession/repentance, as you said in the OP).

My question is, if this rabbinic teaching is true, that our sins can truly be forgiven by God in this manner (nowadays), then why were the animal sacrifices EVER required by Him to receive forgiveness from the get-go

Thank you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

Because that's what G-d commanded. Animal sacrifices were not what got you forgiven, it was sincere repentance. If you were not sincerely repenting then your sacrifice was a waste of time. The Torah doesn't directly explain why Cain's offering was rejected and Abel's was accepted, but the implication is G-d rejected Cain's offering because it was insincere while Abel gave his best. In other words it was from the heart.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire loving-kindness, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 14:2 - 3
2 Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity.
3 Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.


Psalms 51:13 - 19
13 Do not cast me away from before You, and do not take Your holy spirit from me.
14 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and let a noble spirit support me.
15 I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners will return to You.
16 Save me from blood, O God, the God of my salvation; let my tongue sing praises of Your charity.
17 O Lord, You shall open my lips, and my mouth will recite Your praise.
18 For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.
19 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.


In Esther, Jonah and other books G-d forgives without benefit of sacrifices or the presence of a temple. In fact, in the temple days if you were poor and could not afford an ox, sheep or goat you were allowed to substitute with a pigeon. If you were too poor for even that you could offer wheat which any person could get for free from gleaning.

The sacrifices served more then one purpose:

- Levites did not inherit land or have much time for farming. Some did have very small portions of land that were gifted but not nearly enough for sustenance. Most of the temple sacrifices were eaten by the levites and this was G-d's way of ensuring they were fed.
- Livestock is expensive and people didn't just up and kill them willy-nilly. In medieval times for example unless you were rich chicken was only eating on very special occasions because you just did not kill an egg laying bird. If you have to give up an ox (important for farming) sheep (important for wool) or a goat (important for milk) every time you sinned, you'd be pretty careful not to lest you end up poor.
- It was to make restitution to G-d.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Animal sacrifices were not what got you forgiven, it was sincere repentance. If you were not sincerely repenting then your sacrifice was a waste of time.

Hello again Aviva, while I certainly agree with you about that, the question remains, why the sacrifices then/what purpose did they actually serve in Israel if God's forgiveness could be obtained willy-nilly, by contriteness and penitence alone, apart, IOW, from an atoning sacrifice of some kind that made restitution to God (as the basis for His forgiveness)

Thank you for your help with this (and again, for being willing to come here and work through the questions that we have about Judaism with us). I am TRULY appreciative of this

God bless you!! (Numbers 6:24-26)

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - we have the following verse in the NT that talks about the absolute need for an atoning sacrifice to be made for our sins (in order for them to be forgiven), the basis for which comes from the Torah .. e.g. Leviticus 17:11.

Hebrews 9
22 According to the Law, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
​

 

[Aviva]

Hello again Aviva, while I certainly agree with you about that, the question remains, why the sacrifices then/what purpose did they actually serve in Israel if God's forgiveness could be obtained willy-nilly, by contriteness and penitence alone, apart, IOW, from an atoning sacrifice of some kind that made restitution to God (as the basis for His forgiveness)

Thank you for your help with this (and again, for being willing to come here and work through the questions that we have about Judaism with us). I am TRULY appreciative of this

God bless you!! (Numbers 6:24-26)

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - we have the following verse in the NT that talks about the absolute need for an atoning sacrifice to be made for our sins (in order for them to be forgiven), the basis for which comes from the Torah .. e.g. Leviticus 17:11.

​

Hebrews 9​

22 According to the Law, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. ​

​

What do you think happened if you were poor or not near the temple... G-d just said "Sucks to be you"?

G-d is not a robot that can't exercise his judgement and mercy as he sees fit.

 

[Seeker47]

Aviva; if any of my questions make you the least bit uncomfortable feel free to ignore them.

#1. What is the relationship between Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews. How do they relate to each other and is the Messianic movement growing as some would have us believe?

#2. What do Orthodox Jews think about the "Hebrew Roots" movement now growing among some Christians?

 

[Aviva]

Aviva; if any of my questions make you the least bit uncomfortable feel free to ignore them.

#1. What is the relationship between Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews. How do they relate to each other and is the Messianic movement growing as some would have us believe?

#2. What do Orthodox Jews think about the "Hebrew Roots" movement now growing among some Christians?

1. I personally can't stand them, and most Orthodox Jews don't like them. Most are non-Jewish converts. I have no idea if they are growing or not. I consider the term "Messianic Jew" an oxymoron, like if someone told you they were a Hindu-Christian.

2. I have no idea what Hebrew roots is or means in this context. Please explain.

 

[Aviva]

This is EXACTLY what you are doing by trying to interpret my tone.

Again. You are putting YOUR interpretation on something meant to clarify a remark.

You are doing alot of assuming.

The question itself was reasonable as it relates precisely to your OP.

So. Putting all that aside, what misinformation is it that you think we have toward Orthodox Jews? Which, BTW, are a group of people I have defended over and over again through the yrs.

I'll be sporting. Explain why you put those words in quotes and I'll answer your questions.

In my experience evangelicals who "defend Jews" do so only to the extent that Jews and Israel play into thier apocalyptic beliefs, or because they think G-d will bless them extra for it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'm not a Christian and therefore have no stake in any of the conversations. My Christian sister in law just thought it would be amusing if I stuck my head in.

I am glad you have come. I have had Messianic Jewish friends but we have never been able to get into deep discussions. I find the Talmud is used as a reason for Antisemitism. A lot of people say their are things said against Jesus and Christians there. Though you might not be able to answer questions about that, do you know of a good source about the Talmud that isn't full of misinformation? Welcome, I hope you choose to stay.

 

[Aviva]

I am glad you have come. I have had Messianic Jewish friends but we have never been able to get into deep discussions. I find the Talmud is used as a reason for Antisemitism. A lot of people say their are things said against Jesus and Christians there. Though you might not be able to answer questions about that, do you know of a good source about the Talmud that isn't full of misinformation? Welcome, I hope you choose to stay.

Jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud. Unless you are Jewish I don't see why you'd need to read it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud. Unless you are Jewish I don't see why you'd need to read it.

Thank you for your answer. I see you're in Canada. I was born and raised in Nova Scotia. My kin are from Newfoundland. I moved to the southern US over a decade ago.

 

[Seeker47]

1. I personally can't stand them, and most Orthodox Jews don't like them. Most are non-Jewish converts. I have no idea if they are growing or not. I consider the term "Messianic Jew" an oxymoron, like if someone told you they were a Hindu-Christian.

2. I have no idea what Hebrew roots is or means in this context. Please explain.

Some Christians are trying to return to a more authentic Torah based worship. They reject the human traditions that have become so central to the denominational churches. Many attempt to follow Torah, not for salvation but to improve their relationship with their Creator. I think it varies from Messianic Jews in that the Hebrew Roots movement also rejects those human traditions it finds in Judaism. (Sorry, my explanation falls far short on such a significant issue).

 

[Aviva]

Thank you for your answer. I see you're in Canada. I was born and raised in Nova Scotia. My kin are from Newfoundland. I moved to the southern US over a decade ago.

I was born in Israel to an Israeli father and a Palestinian Jewish mother. I've lived in Ireland since I was little and moved to Canada a couple of years ago.

 

[Aviva]

Some Christians are trying to return to a more authentic Torah based worship. They reject the human traditions that have become so central to the denominational churches. Many attempt to follow Torah, not for salvation but to improve their relationship with their Creator. I think it varies from Messianic Jews in that the Hebrew Roots movement also rejects those human traditions it finds in Judaism. (Sorry, my explanation falls far short on such a significant issue).

The Torah only applies to Jews. Not that there is anything wrong with following the Mitzvot, but I don't see why a non-Jew would want to.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'll be sporting. Explain why you put those words in quotes and I'll answer your questions.

In my experience evangelicals who "defend Jews" do so only to the extent that Jews and Israel play into thier apocalyptic beliefs, or because they think G-d will bless them extra for it.

Some of us were brought up with that belief, yes. It's why many gentiles hid Jews during the Holocaust because they believed the OT verse "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” Gen 12:3 My parents brought me up with this belief. There are over a million evangelical people who stand with the Jewish people in America and I have talked to one of the top organizations who are part of this. They actually have enough members that they can influence American policy toward Israel.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Some Christians are trying to return to a more authentic Torah based worship. They reject the human traditions that have become so central to the denominational churches. Many attempt to follow Torah, not for salvation but to improve their relationship with their Creator. I think it varies from Messianic Jews in that the Hebrew Roots movement also rejects those human traditions it finds in Judaism. (Sorry, my explanation falls far short on such a significant issue).

The Hebrew Roots movement is another cult. They are simply saying they are the true Jews which is nonsense. They are way out in left field.

 

[Aviva]

Some of us were brought up with that belief, yes. It's why many gentiles hid Jews during the Holocaust because they believed the OT verse "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” Gen 12:3 My parents brought me up with this belief. There are over a million evangelical people who stand with the Jewish people in America and I have talked to one of the top organizations who are part of this. They actually have enough members that they can influence American policy toward Israel.

Well, I'm not crazy about Israel at the moment so I don't know if that's a good thing.