Once saved always saved?
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20 For if, after escaping from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these and overcome, their last state becomes worse than the first.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it to turn from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it to turn from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them.
Here is the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 9:27. Doesn't seem like OSAS to me. God Bless.
1 Cor 9:27 "No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
The way I read scripture is that faith and belief are the same thing, and essentially the same root word. IMO those who think they are different are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. The fact is, in the NT, faith/belief is used in two different senses, depending on the context of the teaching. Worldly/pagan/religious/cultural faith is in the wrong thing, or is used wrongly, whereas Christian faith is in the right thing and used rightly ("belief in the truth"). Christian faith involves both the mind and the spirit, but wrong faith might be correct mentally but wrong spiritually. This would be the difference that James distinguishes in right and wrong faith.
Pulpit Commentary from Bible Hub on 1 Cor 9:27
"
Verse 27. - I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; literally, I bruise my body, and lead it about as a slave. The word tamely rendered "keep in subjection" means literally, I smite under the eyes. The pugilistic metaphor is kept up, and the picturesque force of the words would convey a vivid impression to Corinthians familiar with the contests of the Pancratum, in which boxing with the heavy lead-bound caestus played a prominent part. The only other place in the New Testament where the word occurs is Luke 18:5, where it seems (on the lips of the unjust judge) to have a sort of slang sense.
How St. Paul "bruised his body" may be seen in 2 Corinthians 6:4, 5; Colossians 3:5; Romans 8:13. It was not by absurd and harmful self torture, but by noble labour and self denial for the good of others. When I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. "Lest" - such is the meaning of the metaphor" after proclaiming to others the laws of the contest (as a herald), I should myself violate those conditions, and be not only defeated as a combatant, but ignominiously rejected from the lists and not allowed to contend at all." The metaphor is not strictly adhered to, for the herald did not personally contend. No candidate could compete without a preliminary scrutiny, and to be "rejected" was regarded as a deadly insult
The word "rejected," "reprobate" - here rendered "a castaway" - is a metaphor derived from the testing of metals, and the casting aside of those which are spurious. That Paul should see the necessity for such serious and unceasing effort shows how little he believed in the possibility of saintly "works of supererogation, over and above what is commanded." "When the cedar of Lebanon trembles, what shall the reed by the brookside do?"
From: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-27.htm
"
Verse 27. - I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; literally, I bruise my body, and lead it about as a slave. The word tamely rendered "keep in subjection" means literally, I smite under the eyes. The pugilistic metaphor is kept up, and the picturesque force of the words would convey a vivid impression to Corinthians familiar with the contests of the Pancratum, in which boxing with the heavy lead-bound caestus played a prominent part. The only other place in the New Testament where the word occurs is Luke 18:5, where it seems (on the lips of the unjust judge) to have a sort of slang sense.
How St. Paul "bruised his body" may be seen in 2 Corinthians 6:4, 5; Colossians 3:5; Romans 8:13. It was not by absurd and harmful self torture, but by noble labour and self denial for the good of others. When I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. "Lest" - such is the meaning of the metaphor" after proclaiming to others the laws of the contest (as a herald), I should myself violate those conditions, and be not only defeated as a combatant, but ignominiously rejected from the lists and not allowed to contend at all." The metaphor is not strictly adhered to, for the herald did not personally contend. No candidate could compete without a preliminary scrutiny, and to be "rejected" was regarded as a deadly insult
The word "rejected," "reprobate" - here rendered "a castaway" - is a metaphor derived from the testing of metals, and the casting aside of those which are spurious. That Paul should see the necessity for such serious and unceasing effort shows how little he believed in the possibility of saintly "works of supererogation, over and above what is commanded." "When the cedar of Lebanon trembles, what shall the reed by the brookside do?"
From: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-27.htm
phil36 said:
I understood what you meant snack. But if you don't fully submit yourself to Christ you are not his. Don't make the mistake of thinking that fully submitted is full perfection. Which you seem to equate.
Either Jesus is your Lord and saviour or he is not. You can't pick and choose. If he is your saviour then he is your Lord.
Since he doesn't believe in sinless perfection, he has to admit that he still sins, as all believers still do.
So, when he sins, is he really submitting to Christ? No. He isn't.
Paul commands believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19. Doing these things clearly shows that the believer is not in full submission to Christ when they do these things.
Salvation is secured eternally when a person puts their full trust alone in Christ's work on their behalf.
I understood what you meant snack. But if you don't fully submit yourself to Christ you are not his. Don't make the mistake of thinking that fully submitted is full perfection. Which you seem to equate.
Either Jesus is your Lord and saviour or he is not. You can't pick and choose. If he is your saviour then he is your Lord.
I think P36 is confused. He says he doesn't believe in "sinless perfection" but demands "full submission to Christ" in order to be saved.
Since he doesn't believe in sinless perfection, he has to admit that he still sins, as all believers still do.
So, when he sins, is he really submitting to Christ? No. He isn't.
Paul commands believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19. Doing these things clearly shows that the believer is not in full submission to Christ when they do these things.
Salvation is secured eternally when a person puts their full trust alone in Christ's work on their behalf.
As the Bereans would say, "where is the verse?"
If there is an edge to step over, the Bible talks about it.
The OSAS response to Matt Dillahunty requires one of two views:
(1) A judgment that he was never saved to begin with,
or (2) That he was saved and still is saved, and as such will get to heaven in spite of his being an "atheist"
or perhaps (3) God will bring him back to belief on his death bed
The non-OSAS response to Matt Dillaunty requires no judgment of whether Mr. Dillaunty was ever saved or not.
I believe Matthew Henry has done an excellent job of explaining this passage. Here is his commentary:
He [Paul] shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5.
(1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num. 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness.
(2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ.
(3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace.
(4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them.
(5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.
Also key to receiving Eternal Life is Holy Communion. The Lord Himself teaches this in John 6:
"54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
This too is a means of sanctification, when we receive with faith and love. It is the "Daily Bread" in the Lord's Prayer.
And again it follows, that justification is not the be-all and end-all of Christian Life, but the beginning of sanctification.
The Lord said, "He who endures (or perseveres) to the end will be saved". If we faithfully do these things, we will be saved.
2 Pet 1 also explains what we should do so as not to stumble: "
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble"
God Bless.
"54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
This too is a means of sanctification, when we receive with faith and love. It is the "Daily Bread" in the Lord's Prayer.
And again it follows, that justification is not the be-all and end-all of Christian Life, but the beginning of sanctification.
The Lord said, "He who endures (or perseveres) to the end will be saved". If we faithfully do these things, we will be saved.
2 Pet 1 also explains what we should do so as not to stumble: "
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble"
God Bless.
If a seed is planted we cant see if the roots are embedded in good soil or not, it and the other plants grow as nature nourishes but sometimes you cant tell the plants apart until a strong wind comes, when the plant topples over we can see it never had its roots in Christ.
The problem I have with saying he was saved means he had accepted Christ as his Lord and saviour and then rejected Him, God knows all things, why did God let His lamb escape the fold? God could have literally killed him, He could have stopped the guys heart before he turned his back and viola he's in heaven with his Beloved Lord which is what he wanted at one point in time?
I mean God either works for our own good or he doesnt...
Rom 8:28 We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose for whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
The once saved maybe saved maybe not view seems to contradict so many scriptures
Not a good idea to use figures of speech when there are a lot of plainly spoken verses that tell us how to receive eternal life.
And it's NOT communion.
John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40,47
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
It's real simple: believe and receive eternal life.
The context is being a good witness so when you preach to others, your testimony lines up with what you preach. Salvation is not in the context.
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Communion had not even been instituted in John 6 - so Jesus was not referring to communion.
Yes I mean a person can lose their salvation, because Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. You must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. (v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.
I get it, but some people don't, the bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).
If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).
Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).
Do tell, dont leave me hanging
Wait let me try and guess...
Is it because they see it as a supernatural one off event, where God actually comes and makes His abode in him? And think being born again is becoming a new creation?
Or is it because they count the cost when they make the decision, for instance it could cost them their friends, their family, or even their life and when counting the cost they see all they could have in the world yet they still choose heaven/Jesus at the expense of the world and worldly blessings?
Is it because they genuinely believe, God is a rewarder of those who put their faith in Him, that those who genuinely believe He will reward life to those who ask for it, and they become sons or inheritors from the moment of conversion?
I would likely have gone into detail but being you decided that sarcasm and insult was the Christian way to confront someone, I'll leave you in your gross, horrible, vitriolic, contentious, foolishness. Enjoy.Do tell, dont leave me hanging
Wait let me try and guess...
Is it because they see it as a supernatural one off event, where God actually comes and makes His abode in him? And think being born again is becoming a new creation?
Or is it because they count the cost when they make the decision, for instance it could cost them their friends, their family, or even their life and when counting the cost they see all they could have in the world yet they still choose heaven/Jesus at the expense of the world and worldly blessings?
Is it because they genuinely believe, God is a rewarder of those who put their faith in Him, that those who genuinely believe He will reward life to those who ask for it, and they become sons or inheritors from the moment of conversion?
After all scripture says to have nothing to do with contentious men.