Is there an Old Testament precedent for that doctrine being only for Jews? I mean, when were they told to just forgive others to get sin forgiveness?
Once saved always saved?
- Thread starter AndrewMorgan
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Is there an Old Testament precedent for that doctrine being only for Jews? I mean, when were they told to just forgive others to get sin forgiveness?
Who's we? Who's the audience? Doctrine applies to the audience. Jesus was born and lived under the OT law. Paul, speaking to the body of Christ about God's righteousness through Jesus Christ, did not place the mandate of forgiving others for forgiveness of sins.
Then who does this apply to and is it required?
Ephesians 4:32
32Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
Yes, we are to forgive one another, but our salvation and forgiveness of sins is contingent on it. Jesus is speaking to the Jews concerning kingdom living.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you realize that to "fully submit" requires effort on your part? Are you RCC? They believe that they must "cooperate" with God in their salvation. iow, Jesus does some things, and YOU must do certain things.
Do you believe that? It appears so. Change my mind.
All believers are commanded to submit. But believers are already saved.
Do you realize that to "fully submit" requires effort on your part? Are you RCC? They believe that they must "cooperate" with God in their salvation. iow, Jesus does some things, and YOU must do certain things.
Do you believe that? It appears so. Change my mind.
Those who believe that they must submit in order to be saved, are not following the biblical way to be saved. It is all about trusting what Jesus did on the cross for them. When someone ADDS their own efforts to the deal, it's a NO DEAL.
All believers are commanded to submit. But believers are already saved.
What verse says our cooperation is a gift?
No, I only want the truth. No one is saved by cooperating with God by their own efforts.
Correct.
Correct.
You can't, obviously. But your previous comment implied that submission is required for salvation.
I think you have it backwards. Works are the basis for our eternal rewards. God's crediting righteousness to us is a gift, which means it cannot be earned.
According to Jesus, plants grew in 3 of the 4 soils. That would indicate salvation. Living plants. However, 2 of the 3 living plants in the soils didn't mature. That speaks of failure to grow up spiritually, which is a real problem in today's churches.
This would suggest that true believers WILL produce fruit, but the Bible does not teach this. In fact, the Bible commands believers to produce fruit. There are many failures among believers. They ARE saved, but failed to grow up in their salvation. 1 Pet 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
The sole issue is this: do YOU believe Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, John 5:24) shall never perish?
This is true, AND, Jesus gave NO exceptions in John 10:28 about recipients of eteranl life actually perishing, as you are claiming.
Please read the WHOLE context. The "end" refers to the end of the Great Tribulation. Not your life, and NOT any other time frame.
Basically the same thing as Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;
iow, failure to forgive others is a sin. And God doesn't forgive the sins that aren't confessed. 1 John 1:9.
So, as long as a believer doesn't forgive others, he/she remains out of fellowship with the Lord, is grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit and cannot grow up spiritually.
Nonsense. Jesus taught is very clearly in John 10:28. OSAS is on the basis of being a recipient of the gift of eternal life.
Wrong. The Bible "first" taught it.
Ephesians 4:32 is written to practicing Christians:
Ephesians 1:1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
It echos the same kind of command Jesus gave in Matt. 6:14,15
Matthew 6:14,15
14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Hi free grace, I think you need to re read my post.
Do you not submit to Jesus as your Lord
Do you not serve your Lord and Master
Do you not serve your brothers and sisters
If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
One can argue that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains. So if you’re not moving mountains then you’re not fully submitted, thus subsequently lost.
Correct. Jesus was real clear in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
However, the "other side" of eternal security is God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11. No one gets away with anything.
Free Grace said:
What verse says our cooperation is a gift?
However, since Paul also commands believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, it should be obvious that believers may not produce fruit. But they are commanded to produce fruit.
What verse says our cooperation is a gift?
There is no mention of our cooperation being a gift. I do read that Paul's efforts were under the grace of God. What does that mean? It means the gift of the Holy Spirit is also a gift of God.
However, since Paul also commands believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, it should be obvious that believers may not produce fruit. But they are commanded to produce fruit.
Is this your imagination, or what? Where do you get your material.Hi free grace, I think you need to re read my post.
Do you not submit to Jesus as your Lord
Do you not serve your Lord and Master
Do you not serve your brothers and sisters
I’m not coming at you with daggers so forgive me if it seems like I’m doing so, but one minute you’re proclaiming you need to fully submit to Christ otherwise you’re lost, and the next minute you’re saying that you fail miserably yet you take comfort in God’s grace.