Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[NoNameMcgee]

I agree with you. What I said was sarcasm.

lol... now that you say that i can see it ....

 

[joefizz]

How about feeding the poor in your city. Not against the law, and there is a great need there.
Not to condemn those who want to help people all over the world, but there is more than enough need in our own neighborhoods to keep us busy.
I seem to run out of time and money before I can help all my neighbors in need.

Yeah everyone in Christ "serves a purpose" the only "difference" is in "what way".

 

[SpoonJuly]

lol... now that you say that i can see it ....

The reason false teachers are so successful today is because those who know the truth get tired of the ENDLESS DEBATE and stop trying.
Satin's teachers never tire of spreading lies.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am suggesting that "Christians can be on a faith see-saw and love it"? LOL! Those are your words - I never said anything like that!

But that is what it boils down to. Faith today. Gone tomorrow. Back the next day. Gone again. Back again. Christianity would be madness on this basis.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The reason false teachers are so successful today is because those who know the truth get tired of the ENDLESS DEBATE and stop trying.
Satan's teachers never tire of spreading lies.

Very true. They are more zealous in their lies than Christians who simply get tired of nonsense.

 

[Nehemiah6]

wow there's a new limit - how am I supposed to bloviate now

Be concise and precise. That's how the Lord did it.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Very true. They are more zealous in their lies than Christians who simply get tired of nonsense.

Jesus, when He sent out the 12, told them to teach those who would here and walk away from those who would not.
There is a time to continue and a time to move on. Time is to short to waste it on those who will never hear.
While it seems to me some spend way to much time on this forum, we do not really know how many read and learn even if they never post.
So, from time to time, I will join in the ENDLESS REPITION.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Your true colors are really showing now. You define faith “as” obedience/works. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the RCC, I was taught that same error.

Yes my true colors as a true believer.


You on the other hand have shown us you don’t understand faith and how faith works.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

Who has made known to all nations for the obedience of faith?

1. God?
2. Paul?
3. JPT?

JPT

 

[Ralph-]

But that is what it boils down to. Faith today. Gone tomorrow. Back the next day. Gone again. Back again. Christianity would be madness on this basis.

No it doesn't boil down to that because the scriptures are clear that God does not allow Christ to be crucified for a person again. Once you fall from trust in Christ and God turns you over to that unbelief, it's over. There's no second chances.

 

[preston39]

Why not once saved always saved ? Rather than once lost always lost ? What is a person being saved of if not eternal damnation ...those who never rise to new spirit life do not receive it ?

It would seem we can trust him to pay the full wage as the better thing that accompanies salvation .

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

g...,

In this environment there is always someone new looking in.
That is different than a constant environment with the same participants.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No it doesn't boil down to that because the scriptures are clear that God does not allow Christ to be crucified for a person again. Once you fall from trust in Christ and God turns you over to that unbelief, it's over. There's no second chances.

The fact is that no genuine Christian gets on that see-saw.

Genuine faith in Christ results in the New Birth, and all the accompanying supernatural works of God which go with salvation. Therefore we read this in Scripture (1 Pet 1: 2, 5) about those who are children of God:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied... Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[mailmandan]

To believe means trust, commit and obey.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to *entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).* Obedience which follows "is" works (and we are not saved by works), yet you say believe "is" obedience/works, which is false.

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation* ;abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Roman Catholics make the same error and I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES this list of acts of obedience/works above is false and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Unbelief is Disobedience and is the same Greek word.

I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) use this same argument in regards to John 3:36 (NASB) - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not "obey" the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe in the Son. Receiving eternal life is not based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows faith in Christ, but we obey by choosing to believe in the Son, just as we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. So to obey the Son here is to believe in/on the Son.

In John 3:36, (KJV) - "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life".. *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

The Gospel is: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

• and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15
• From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

• That was the "good news" of the kingdom which was preached to Israel. Now what was the "good news" that Paul preached which he received through a revelation of Jesus Christ which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel? (Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-12).

Repent means to turn to God.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Believers turn to God when they repent and believe the gospel.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

That's exactly what happens, as we see in Acts 26:15-18.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

Don't confuse faith with obedience/works which follow. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

Unfortunately, there are many works-salvationists in various false religions and cults who believe they have repented and do believe the gospel and have been transformed from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God and serve the Lord, but are deceived.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes my true colors as a true believer.

True believers do not re-define believe/faith "as" obedience/works and teach salvation based on works, but works-salvationists do.

You on the other hand have shown us you don’t understand faith and how faith works.

Salvation by works is not how faith works. I understand faith and the difference between faith "and" works and I also understand that faith works through love. Galatians 5:6 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

"Obedience of faith" does not mean that faith is defined as obedience/works and that we are saved by obedience/works. You sound like a Roman Catholic.

As I previously explained, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5).

Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, not by works, then "unto" obedience/works.

 

[mailmandan]

But that is what it boils down to. Faith today. Gone tomorrow. Back the next day. Gone again. Back again. Christianity would be madness on this basis.

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Continuing...

2 Peter2
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darknessbto be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the fleshcand despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them fromd the Lord.12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

2 Peter 3 actually continues on the context, with a warning about heeding scoffers and those who have forgotten their beliefs in God.

Honestly, there are no verses in 2 Peter that can be quoted on their own. Context demands that the book be taken as a whole. And as a whole, 2 Peter commends the faithful and warns the apostates.

well we see you can cut and paste, Now can you understand what you cut and paste? I sure hope you do not think you proved your point with this cut and paste..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Title of thread,,

"Oh Goody Another OSAS thread!"

Besides we're off point again. The issue isn't osas. It's at what point does a debate become 'endless useless repetition'?

Seems to me that someone is very confused.

 

[Chester]

But that is what it boils down to. Faith today. Gone tomorrow. Back the next day. Gone again. Back again. Christianity would be madness on this basis.

Again, those are your words, not mine.

I have never lived my Christian life that way and never plan to . . . if others want to try such a rollercoaster ride they may - not me!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

thats not true....

i came to cc on my first account as a sinless perfectionist with a bit of a hebrew roots element

it was only through constant reproof from actual brothers and sisters in Christ to make me drop everything i spent years learning that i thought i knew back at Gods feet

and just beg Him to show me what He wants me to see....


took months to completely break me from works salvation - a false gospel

but praise God

He did it


and now the bible flows perfectly

things that once either confused me or seem to go against other verses are clear as day

Your not the only one either.. Inspite of what they think

 

[garee]

this is true, once any thread hits 3 pages it becomes mostly repetition. But this issue takes it to a whole other level. And aren't we warned against vain repetitions?

And I have seen people change beliefs on other issues. But not this one. Both sides seem to be pretty entrenched.

And the question was still not answered. Do you think it's right and Godly that's D's osas thread goes on for over 3,100 pages? Instead of spending some of that time and energy to do something productive, say like breaking the law to feed the poor?

I would say yes we are warned against vain repetitions... not against godly repetition as we cry out in repetition for an answer looking to his grace, the milk of the word as newborn children of God .It gives us his comfort. So its not repetition that is vain but the way we cry out and to whom. The Catholics cry out in repetition to the legion of workers with familiar spirits (3500 and rising) that they must in vain call Patron saints. Crying out once after any other than our Father in heaven is vanity .

Its like one poster posted :To lose your salvation would require a force greater than God. Remember Who it is that saved you. It's not yourself.

 

[justpassinthrough]

True believers do not re-define believe/faith "as" obedience/works and teach salvation based on works, but works-salvationists do.

The only way the principle of faith works, is by obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works

Not the works of the law of Moses
Not the work that earns a wage
Not good works


The work of obedience.


Abraham obeyed God when He told him to offer Issac on the altar.


Abraham demonstrated faith working by love, by His obedience and was justified by faith: By the obedience of faith.


Maybe you believe that by “disobedience” is how we are justified, which means to be declared as righteous.


That is how faith functions, by the corresponding action of obedience to what God says to us..


Faith comes to us by hearing God speak to us.

When we obey what Gos says, then faith becomes “activated” of alive, and able to produce the intended divine result.

Faith without this corresponding act of obedience is dead, and does not function, like a body without a spirit is dead, and does not function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Now maybe you could answer this simple question.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

Who has made known to all nations for the obedience of faith?

1. God?
2. Paul?
3. JPT?

JPT