Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[eternally-gratefull]

First of all, I don't use the phrase "lose salvation".

Secondly. it's about a person departing from the faith, which is the substance of our salvation.

You can call it whatever you want, it is still losing salvation. nJust own up to it.

So let's review so foundational principles about faith: what faith means, and who faith functions, or operates.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Those of us who have faith in Christ Jesus, have the hope of salvation, which we will receive at His coming.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

• it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

We all must appear before the judgement seat of Christ, to be judged according to our deeds.


Which we will either receive eternal life, or eternal damnation.



Peter says it this way -


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


Notice the language of faith that Peter is using -

• that the genuineness of your faith...
• whom having not seen you love.
• Though now you do not see Him, yet believing...

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

The end result of obtaining anything by faith, is receiving in reality the thing you hoped for through faith.


IOW, if you have something by faith, then by default, you have the hope of receiving that thing you do not yet see.



Paul says it this way - again look at the language of faith being used.


24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

• we were saved in this hope
• but hope that is seen is not hope - (faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen)

Paul is saying if we have the thing we are hoping for, then we no longer hope for it, but have obtained it.

• But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Paul says we are still hoping for the salvation we have by faith, in that we eagerly wait for it.


The object of discussion is salvation, as Paul says, we were (past tense) saved in this hope, which is a reference to salvation through faith.



I will stop there are wait for you to reply before going on to the law of faith, and how faith works, or operates.






JPT

lol. Your adding way to much into it, and your saying something God says we have NOW is not going to happen till later. You have made the same mistake many legalistic groups have done, and twisted things so that it appears you are right

Your right, Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen.

My hope? Eternal life. Which John says I have in my possession right now. (I write these things to you so you may know you HAVE eternal life, and continue to believe) and paul said it is our hope. which God (who can not lie) promised before time began.

Paul also says I HAVE BEEN SAVED, I am not waiting to be saved. Yes my salvation will be complete or fulfilled in heaven, But I am saved now. Completely saved, Justified, Sealed. whatever it is you want to call it.

and you may go to the great white throne judgment, But I will not be there, I will be at the bema seat (jusgment sea) as will all believers, who will have their works tried, and recieve reward or suffer loss. But I will still be saved. Whoever is delivered to the great white throne. No one will make it out. they all will spend eternity in hell.

Faih is an assurance, A hope. A trust, I trust God. I do not trust self (not even my ability to keep believing completely) so there is no hope in me, Only in Christ,

 

[Jaybrewer]

You just made that up to fit your false beliefs.

Here is what the verse says: "...unless ye have believed in vain..."

Here is what you said: "Unless you continue to believe to the end"

They are NOT identical. Here is what the verse actually means:

Strong's Concordance
eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Short Definition: without purpose, in vain
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.

HELPS Word-studies
1500 eikḗ – properly, without cause (ground), without basis and therefore not to be taken seriously (considered valid). This adverb suggests, "What goes to no purpose . . . ".

In other words, "unless your faith was fake (not to be taken seriously)".

If there was no genuine saving faith to begin with, then that person was not even saved. But you twisted that to mean something else altogether.

Now the hard part: what is "genuine saving faith"?

 

[Jaybrewer]

That is not true. Some pretenders might believe this, but genuinely saved Christians understand that they have renounced the world, the flesh, and the devil. But no Christian is sinlessly perfect, and those who fall examine themselves, confess, and repent, so that they are not under the dominion of sin.

I agree. It comes down, I think, to whether or not one wants to sin or to be freely able to sin and get away with it, or whether or not one merely gives in to natural pulls, such as anger, natural malice, or lust. One can control outward physical behavior and not perform the physical act expected to follow from these mental states, but unfortunately, one actually continues to sin just by having the mental states themselves (Matthew 5:28), despite the fact that mental states are unexpected (we can't possibly know what we're going to feel or be made to feel five minutes from now) and more importantly, uncontrollable (I'd like to see the human being that can notexperience a particular emotion by simply not wanting to experience it).

 

[Jaybrewer]

That is not true. Some pretenders might believe this, but genuinely saved Christians understand that they have renounced the world, the flesh, and the devil. But no Christian is sinlessly perfect, and those who fall examine themselves, confess, and repent, so that they are not under the dominion of sin.

I agree. It come down, I think, to whether or not one wants to sin for the sake of sin in defiance of God or not, or whether or not one gives in to natural pulls, such as lust. One can control outward physical behavior and not perform the physical act, but then one continues to sin simply by having lust itself (Matthew 5:28), which is typically unexpected and more importantly, uncontrollable (I'd like to see the human being that can not experience a particular emotion by simply not wanting to experience it).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Now the hard part: what is "genuine saving faith"?

1 JOHN 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Such as.....?

Such as learning what not to do. I learn a tremendous amount from others disobedience.

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1 Corinthians 11:19​

 

[joefizz]

Real faith in Jesus(not a phony claim),that was "hard" huh?
Hearing about "faith" is the "easy" part,accepting Jesus is the "hard" part because any person can just enter into Christianity and"say" they believe,but "accepting" God's word,and his son as Saviour is perhaps the "hardest" thing to do,it's not called a "transformation" for nothing because once you finally accept Jesus you "change spiritually forever".
Then what happens next is you bit by bit,"leave your old carnal self behind" it can take a lot of "time" depending upon how must sin you have partaken of or "remember as of value to you",thankfully through water baptism we given the "opportunity" to be rid of sin for a time long enough to "get our minds collected and our paths navigated better" for to serve Jesus.

 

[joefizz]

Real faith in Jesus(not a phony claim),that was "hard" huh?
Hearing about "faith" is the "easy" part,accepting Jesus is the "hard" part because any person can just enter into Christianity and"say" they believe,but "accepting" God's word,and his son as Saviour is perhaps the "hardest" thing to do,it's not called a "transformation" for nothing because once you finally accept Jesus you "change spiritually forever".
Then what happens next is you bit by bit,"leave your old carnal self behind" it can take a lot of "time" depending upon how must sin you have partaken of or "remember as of value to you",thankfully through water baptism we given the "opportunity" to be rid of sin for a time long enough to "get our minds collected and our paths navigated better" for to serve Jesus.

that's supposed to be "much"^^^not "must".(time ran out)

 

[RickyZ]

Such as learning what not to do. I learn a tremendous amount from others disobedience.

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1 Corinthians 11:19​

And what do you not do in relation to the OSAS issue?

 

[RickyZ]

Real faith in Jesus(not a phony claim),that was "hard" huh?
Hearing about "faith" is the "easy" part,accepting Jesus is the "hard" part because any person can just enter into Christianity and"say" they believe,but "accepting" God's word,and his son as Saviour is perhaps the "hardest" thing to do,it's not called a "transformation" for nothing because once you finally accept Jesus you "change spiritually forever".
Then what happens next is you bit by bit,"leave your old carnal self behind" it can take a lot of "time" depending upon how must sin you have partaken of or "remember as of value to you",thankfully through water baptism we given the "opportunity" to be rid of sin for a time long enough to "get our minds collected and our paths navigated better" for to serve Jesus.

And yet 2 Peter 2 indicates this is not always the case

 

[notuptome]

And yet 2 Peter 2 indicates this is not always the case

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

You are confusing false prophets and false teachers with those who are born again.

Context will prevent your proof text from becoming a pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And what do you not do in relation to the OSAS issue?

One of the things I learn is to not have a stiff neck.

 

[joefizz]

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

You are confusing false prophets and false teachers with those who are born again.

Context will prevent your proof text from becoming a pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You know sometimes I like it when I "don't have to respond" because someone says what's correct and I can "learn" instead of just "teach" like with this post.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And yet 2 Peter 2 indicates this is not always the case

2 Peter 2 is all about false prophets and false teachers who are not even saved. It has nothing to say about genuine Christians.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you... whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not (vv 1,3)

These men have been judged and will be damned.

 

[RickyZ]

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

You are confusing false prophets and false teachers with those who are born again.

Context will prevent your proof text from becoming a pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes context is important. That's why I referenced the whole chapter, not just a piece of it. And to be true one must start with 2 Peter 1 to get the full context. Peter starts out in 1 talking about the faith that was taught them, and how good it is they are sticking to it. 2 then rolls over with a but clause ... but beware of false teachers who will lead you to turn away from that faith. So 2 talks not just about the false teachers, like you said, but also about those who follow them.

2 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Be Holy
13Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”a
17Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.b 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord endures forever.”c
And this is the word that was preached to you.

To be continued...
(wow there's a new limit - how am I supposed to bloviate now?

 

[RickyZ]

Continuing...

2 Peter2
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darknessbto be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the fleshcand despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them fromd the Lord.12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

2 Peter 3 actually continues on the context, with a warning about heeding scoffers and those who have forgotten their beliefs in God.

Honestly, there are no verses in 2 Peter that can be quoted on their own. Context demands that the book be taken as a whole. And as a whole, 2 Peter commends the faithful and warns the apostates.

 

[mailmandan]

I didn't understand the first paragraph but I think it challenges the 'once saved always saved' doctrine that is so popular. I'll admit I never really bought into it either. Teaching that someone is eternally saved by merely reciting the sinners prayer then going on as before dosn't ring true, it seems too easy and bears no fruit. Is that the point?

No, that's not the point. We are saved the moment that we repent and believe the gospel. Reciting a prayer "in of itself" as if that prayer is a set of magical words "apart from repentance/faith" saves no one.

 

[godisgood71]

All I can say is... Join JOHN SQUAD!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Can you interpret?

There is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST.

who are these people, People who do not walk according to the flesh, but the spirit.

It is not saying we become in christ by walking, It says e walk BECAUSE we are in christ.

why do you want to take credit yourself?

He is trying to create two separate classes of Christians. Those who are in Christ (and walk according to the Spirit and will be saved) and those who are in Christ (but do not walk according to the Spirit and will not be saved). Those who are in Christ are described as those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4).

 

[RickyZ]

You know your thread has hit the big time when it gets trolled!