Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[Ralph-]

Actually James is not a law book. He is teaching principles of faith. It is love and mercy to visit widows and orphans; that can be shown in other ways. It's a loving heart that matters, not following a list of works.

He calls doing those things keeping the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

To try and separate a loving heart from the works he lists is the very deception he is warning us against.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, we are saved through faith but we are not saved by faith. Let's say for example there is a vicious dog chasing you down the sidewalk. The sidewalk splits into three paths- one leads to your neighbours house, one leads into the street, and one leads to your house. Which path do you go though to be saved from the dog? The path to your house- because that path leads you to safety. If you choose this correct path and stop there, you will be mauled. You are not safe until you are in the house.

Faith leads people to Christ (baptism without faith just gets you wet, not saved) but it is not until you are in Christ that you are saved. (and the only way the bible says we get in Christ is to be baptised into Christ) This is what through faith means. Simply having faith (belief) that God exists does not save you- even demons believe in God.

Obedience cannot earn salvation, therefore God's criteria for choosing who to give grace to can be to those who obey Him, just like He can choose any other criteria of things that cannot earn the gift. He does not choose to give grace to those who will not obey Him, but only to those who will, and not just once, but on an ongoing basis.

More sugar coated double speak and saved through faith and saved by faith is a distinction without a difference. Also, we get into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 11:16-17; Ephesians 1:13) not water baptism.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He calls doing those things keeping the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

To try and separate a loving heart from the works he lists is the very deception he is warning us against.

They are indeed ways of doing the royal law (which is not what James said anyways), but they are not the only way. In fact, someone can do those things without a loving heart, which would render those things dead works.

 

[Ralph-]

This section can be applied personally, and not just "work of ministry".

It can't because James said dead faith can not save.

If the works that get burned up are your personal works of holiness then you make the passage contradict James and are saying dead faith (faith without works attached) CAN save.

If I witness to someone and they choose not to believe, why is it that "I" suffer loss?

Because they will not be in the kingdom to be your reward for your labor in the building and field of God.

What? People' are my work and my reward for my labor done in this life for the kingdom of God? Yes, they are:

"Are you (Corinthians) not my work in the Lord? "-1 Corinthians 9:1
"
19For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you (Thessalonians)? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy."-1 Thessalonians 2:19-20

"-

If I have many good works, but every single person I witness to decides not to believe, why am I saved "as one escaping through the flame"?

Because you brought nothing (nobody) with you in your escape through the fiery end time judgment of fire. Like a person who wakes suddenly and escapes the burning house and leaves everybody else behind with no one to show for his efforts to save the others.

In regard to ministry this is shameful, if you have no work to show for your labor because you were lazy or uneducated in the truth. That is why we must labor with competence, with energy and motivation, and with the truth. False doctrine is not going to produce people who pass through the fires of the coming judgment. They won't be on the other side for them to be your reward for your labor in the field and building of God. You yourself will be saved (assuming you weren't teaching false doctrine on purpose) but only as one who escapes with nothing but his own skin from a burning building.

 

[Ralph-]

They are indeed ways of doing the royal law (which is not what James said anyways), but they are not the only way.

Yes, it IS what James was saying. He said if you do this or that you will be keeping the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. And, yes, there are many more ways to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That would be the works of the 'Other' category in your other post. I could post lengthy passages of NT scripture to detail what works constitute the works of 'living' faith--the faith that saves.

In fact, someone can do those things without a loving heart, which would render those things dead works.

No, dead works are defined as the sinful works of the flesh, not good works done outside of the power of God. At the very least what works done outside of the power of God will do is keep you from being guilty of not doing them....and are probably you having done them without joy and in power and effectiveness and without powerful witness to the gospel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, it IS what James was saying. He said if you do this or that you will be keeping the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. And, yes, there are many more ways to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That would be the works of the 'Other' category in your other post. I could post lengthy passages of NT scripture to detail what works constitute the works of 'living' faith--the faith that saves.

James said Leviticus 19:18 was fulfilling the royal law, not visiting widows an orphans (which he described as one aspect of pure religion). Visiting widows an orphans is one way to fulfill the royal law, but it's certainly not the only way, and not something that has to be done by everyone. Yet you said we must do that to be saved. Did you mean the more general sense of loving one's neighbor as one's self?

No, dead works are defined as the sinful works of the flesh, not good works done outside of the power of God. At the very least what works done outside of the power of God will do is keep you from being guilty of not doing them....and are probably you having done them without joy and in power and effectiveness and without powerful witness to the gospel.

It's a question of heart motive. If someone does something (or doesn't do something) because they are motivated by love for another person, that is a good work. If someone does something because they think they must do it to be saved (excluding not sinning), that is a work of law, and potentially a dead work (I'll let GOD be the judge).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you can understand what Peter means when he says "baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21) then you can understand how works save us.

Works do not justify us, they save us. For dead faith (faith with no works attached) can not save.

Again,

Peter did not say baptism saves us, for once in your life can you actually study a passage to see what the word is really saying?

Paul said not by works of righteousness we have done (baptism is a works of righteousness) he saved us peter did not contradict paul, period!

Words not not justify, they do nt save, and they do not maintain salvation,

 

[Ralph-]

Visiting widows an orphans is one way to fulfill the royal law, but it's certainly not the only way, and not something that has to be done by everyone. Yet you said we must do that to be saved. Did you mean the more general sense of loving one's neighbor as one's self?

Of course I'm talking of widows and orphans in a general sense. Paul explains that "while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people" (Galatians 6:10). Not everybody is going to have the opportunity presented to them to visit orphans and widows in distress. Your responsibility to orphans and widows lies in whatever opportunities you have to serve them.

It's a question of heart motive. If someone does something (or doesn't do something) because they are motivated by love for another person, that is a good work. If someone does something because they think they must do it to be saved (excluding not sinning), that is a work of law, and potentially a dead work (I'll let GOD be the judge).

You are adding a connotation to 'work of the law'.

Work of the law does not mean by definition 'any work in the law that you do to be justified', but that is the connotation that you are adding to it. It only means that if that's how you are using it. Any work described in the law is a 'work of the law', including 'love your neighbor as yourself'. But not all works done that are in the law are you trying to be justified by it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are adding a connotation to 'work of the law'.

Work of the law does not mean by definition 'any work in the law that you do to be justified', but that is the connotation that you are adding to it. It only means that if that's how you are using it. Any work described in the law is a 'work of the law', including 'love your neighbor as yourself'. But not all works done that are in the law are you trying to be justified by it.

I didn't say "work of the law" (and neither did Paul for that matter), but "work of law", which is the antithesis of faith working through love. Doing something because we think we are not right with GOD unless we do it is a work of law. It simply shows a lack of faith in justification. Good works don't come from that motivation. Works done from a heart motivation of love cloth us with Christ's righteousness and are works that will endure the fire of judgment.

 

[Ralph-]

Peter did not say baptism saves us, for once in your life can you actually study a passage to see what the word is really saying?

Paul said not by works of righteousness we have done (baptism is a works of righteousness) he saved us peter did not contradict paul, period!

See, you are completely incapable of understanding how it is that Peter can say "baptism that now saves you" without it meaning "works earn your salvation, or works justify you". You're only able to understand what I'm saying as if I can only be making the argument that we literally earn salvation by what we do. You literally can not comprehend that I'm not making that argument at all.

Words not not justify, they do nt save, and they do not maintain salvation,

Yes, we all know works do not justify, nor do they earn salvation. The problem is you are on auto pilot as if that is the only arguments a person can be making when they say what Peter and Paul say about works saving a person:

"baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21)

"But women will be preserved (saved) through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. " (1 Timothy 2:15)


Peter and Paul show us that works not being able to justify a person and works not being able to earn salvation is not the only argument one can be making when one says works save you. But you can't see that. So you will continue to only be able to hear 'works save' as a works gospel argument, even though Peter and Paul both plainly say works save.

 

[Ralph-]

I didn't say "work of the law" (and neither did Paul for that matter), but "work of law", which is the antithesis of faith working through love. Doing something because we think we are not right with GOD unless we do it is a work of law. It simply shows a lack of faith in justification. Good works don't come from that motivation. Works done from a heart motivation of love cloth us with Christ's righteousness and are works that will endure the fire of judgment.

Faith upholds the law of Moses (Romans 3:31)

That's all a person needs to remember.
The church has gone to great lengths to complicate this matter when it's not complicated at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See, you are completely incapable of understanding how it is that Peter can say "baptism that now saves you" without it meaning "works earn your salvation, or works justify you". You're only able to understand what I'm saying as if I can only be making the argument that we literally earn salvation by what we do. You literally can not comprehend that I'm not making that argument at all.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall

Peter did not say baptism saves us, he said like the waters of the flood, baptism is also a symbol of that which saves us also.

Peter said baptism is an answer of a good conscious towards god,

Then he tells us what did save us, the ressurection of christ.

Yes, we all know works do not justify, nor do they earn salvation. The problem is you are on auto pilot as if that is the only arguments a person can be making when they say what Peter and Paul say about works saving a person:

"baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21)

"But women will be preserved (saved) through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. " (1 Timothy 2:15)


Peter and Paul show us that works not being able to justify a person and works not being able to earn salvation is not the only argument one can be making when one says works save you. But you can't see that. So you will continue to only be able to hear 'works save' as a works gospel argument, even though Peter and Paul both plainly say works save.

Paul,

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Get over your works mentality, and stop calling paul a liar. Water baptism will not save us, women giving birth will not save them eternally, whether they continue in fath or not. When will you start giving credit to god, and stop reserving it for yourself?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Faith upholds the law of Moses (Romans 3:31)
That's all a person needs to remember.
The church has gone to great lengths to complicate this matter when it's not complicated at all.

If it was that simple I wouldn't have to ask what does "Faith upholds the law of Moses"mean?

btw I'm not convinced that's actually what Paul said. The Greek is "Do we then make law obsolete through the faith? May it not be. Yea, we make law stand." My paraphrase: "Do we do away with the rule of law through the faith of Christ. By no means. We make the rule of law stand through the faith." In other words, grace is by no means the absence of law because the faith is the ultimate law.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Confessing is not even a work, it is acknowledging in repentance that God is riht, and we are wrong, and turning our eternity over to God.

Amen

 

[OneFaith]

More sugar coated double speak and saved through faith and saved by faith is a distinction without a difference. Also, we get into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 11:16-17; Ephesians 1:13) not water baptism.

Only Christ's blood saves- which you get through faith not by faith. If faith saved then Christ's blood would not be needed. No, it is through faith, not by faith- there is a difference.

There is only one way the bible says (not what you say, but what the bible says) that we get into Christ, we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3). When they were baptized with the Holy Spirit it was to receive power to speak in tongues. This is not the gospel that saves. The gospel is obeying the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ by water baptism. Romans 6 specifically says 'like this' referring to baptism. It does not say we will join Him in His resurrection if we receive power from the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, but only if we are baptized.

"WITH FLAMES OF FIRE HE WILL TAKE VENGEANCE ON THOSE WHO KNOW NOT GOD AND WHO OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF HIS SON."

 

[Ralph-]

Talking to you is like talking to a wall

Peter did not say baptism saves us, he said like the waters of the flood, baptism is also a symbol of that which saves us also.

Peter said baptism is an answer of a good conscious towards god,

Then he tells us what did save us, the ressurection of christ.




Paul,

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Get over your works mentality, and stop calling paul a liar. Water baptism will not save us, women giving birth will not save them eternally, whether they continue in fath or not. When will you start giving credit to god, and stop reserving it for yourself?

We both know that only trust in Christ can justify a person. And we both know that the power of salvation itself is in God's grace, not in any action we perform.

The problem is you cast away Peter and Paul's statements about being saved by what you do as if they don't even exist because you think that can only mean you earn your salvation by what you do. What you're failing to do is understand how works save a person without those works earning a person's salvation. And so you ignore the words of Paul and Peter.

Get out of your closed off, narrow-minded doctrinal view and open your eyes. Learn what they mean when they say works save. Don't discard it just because you can't grasp the possibility of any other argument outside of your own narrow view about works and salvation. Being saved by what you do does not have to only mean you earn your salvation by your own merit by your works.

 

[Ralph-]

If it was that simple I wouldn't have to ask what does "Faith upholds the law of Moses"mean?

It is that simple. Really.
That doesn't mean people don't have to learn it. It means they don't have to complicate the matter by, for example, inventing various laws to explain away our relationship with the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

btw I'm not convinced that's actually what Paul said. The Greek is "Do we then make law obsolete through the faith? May it not be. Yea, we make law stand." My paraphrase: "Do we do away with the rule of law through the faith of Christ. By no means. We make the rule of law stand through the faith." In other words, grace is by no means the absence of law

In context you'll see he's talking about the law of Moses. Not inventing some kind of abstract law that Christians uphold.

because the faith is the ultimate law.

All Paul is saying is faith in Christ is the 'rule' you follow to be justified. He's not inventing some kind of new law with a different list of things than the law of Moses which the Christian does in his Christian life.

"27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."-Romans 3:27-28



.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is that simple. Really.
That doesn't mean people don't have to learn it. It means they don't have to complicate the matter by, for example, inventing various laws to explain away our relationship with the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

You keep saying it's simple, yet don't explain its simplicity. It doesn't look simple to me at all for these reasons:

1) the law of Moses didn't need anyone to make it stand (establish in the KJV)
2) the law has been abolished (rendered ineffective)
3) we are not under the law (not subject to its demands)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In context you'll see he's talking about the law of Moses. Not inventing some kind of abstract law that Christians uphold.

That's exactly what I'm not seeing. The "abstract" law you're referring to is not a man-made invention. It is the law of the spirit of life in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

You keep saying it's simple, yet don't explain its simplicity.

Stop inventing laws to explain how we as Christians obey law without that law being the law of Moses. That's a horrible complication of the issue.

Christians uphold the law of Moses--all of it. It's just that the Christian has no outstanding debt of law concerning the ceremonial laws that he has to literally fulfill. It's really that simple. Really.

It doesn't look simple to me at all for these reasons:

1) the law of Moses didn't need anyone to make it stand (establish in the KJV)

You don't seem to know what upholding the law means. It's just like when you uphold the traffic laws of your local government. You uphold the law by not violating it.

2) the law has been abolished (rendered ineffective)

The correct word is 'obsolete'. Various ceremonial laws have been made 'obsolete' in regard to their literal, physical, Mosaic fulfillment. In the analogy of the traffic laws I just used above this would be analogous to the traffic laws concerning trucks becoming obsolete for you........because you don't drive a truck anymore. The law didn't get removed, it became obsolete to you. And so it is with the ceremonial law. It didn't get removed (Jesus said he did not come to do that). It was made obsolete and no longer applicable to those who believe in Christ. The ceremonial law still stands on the books. But in Christ it is no longer applicable to the believer.

The simplicity is the ceremonial aspects of the law have been made obsolete and no longer needed because of what Christ did on the cross. He didn't remove and destroy those laws. He made them obsolete and no longer needed. The law we uphold is the law of Moses, not some new law.

3) we are not under the law (not subject to its demands)

You are not 'under' the demands of the ceremonial law in the law of Moses.

And you are not 'under' the condemnation of the law (because you can now keep it by the power of the Spirit, and because Christ can forgive you when you don't keep it).



See? No need to invent a different law to reconcile the seeming contradiction between Paul saying we uphold the law of Moses and Paul saying it has been made obsolete.