Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[justpassinthrough]

Man is saved through faith, not works. The intended divine result of faith is not salvation by works.

I never said man was saved through works.


You don't even seem to know what the discussion is about.


Faith requires the corresponding action of obedience for it to be complete, and able to produce it's intended divine result.


If God speaks to you and shows you the winning lottery numbers, and says you are to steward wealth for His kingdom, and to go buy one ticket, in which you believe him, but don't go and purchase the ticket, the faith you have from God speaking to you is incomplete and will not produce the divine result of bringing you the wealth that God desires for you to steward for His kingdom.



Example -


20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

God moved on this woman to do something that would produce the divine result of healing for her body.


If she just "believed" in her heart without moving through the crowds toward Jesus to actually do the "work" of touching the hem of His garment, she would not have been healed, because she was afraid to act.

• “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.”

She didn't produce this faith in and of herself, but it came from God, moving upon her heart.


Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.


When God moved upon her to touch the hem of Jesus' garment, she was filled with the hope of being healed, and when she acted, her faith that she received from God produced the divine result of healing.




JLB

 

[Ralph-]

you push works

I push works in the same way the Bible does--not for justification, but so you'll be saved when Jesus returns, not turned away. Dead faith can not save.

The problem is you can only see 'pushing works' the way Paul talked about pushing works......for justification. But the Bible most certainly pushes works for the purpose of being saved when Jesus comes back. Not because they make you righteous or earn salvation, but because the faith that justifies is the faith that works (loves--Galatians 5:6). But you are literally only capable of understanding the requirement for works to be an argument for works earning your justification/salvation. Literally incapable. You and many others.

, if one does not have works, they have no faith, its a back door way to preaching works

But is it preaching that works justify? No. And that is what you are literally incapable of grasping. You instantly think 'works salvation' when you hear the word works and literally can not understand them in any other vein of thought. You have been trained by a very ignorant and Spirit-less church to only be able to think that way. And now you have become a vessel through which that narrow sighted message gets propagated in the church.

If one loses faith, (if it were possible) works would still not be part if the equation,

Works are not part of the equation for JUSTIFICATION. But they are a part of the equation for being saved on the day Christ returns. If you have dead faith on the day Christ comes back you will not enter the kingdom of God. Dead faith can NOT save you. Doesn't matter if you used to believe but don't now, or if you never believed to begin with. If your faith is dead (having no works of obedience attached) you have a faith that can NOT save you. James said so.

and james cant be used, james speaks of people who claim to have faith but has no works, not people who lost faith, and because they lost faith have no works.

Of course you can show us where James said he is talking about people who never believed, right?

You're on very dangerous territory. You're making James fit your preconceived theology instead of letting James form your theology for you. I've never seen that happen to such a degree than I do in the once saved always saved movement.

 

[justpassinthrough]

***See post #583.

See God's word, Romans 10:9-10


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Does this scripture say Believing alone in your heart unto salvation, or does it say confession is made unto salvation?



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

I push works in the same way the Bible does--not for justification, but so you'll be saved when Jesus returns, not turned away. Dead faith can not save.

Agreed.


Extremely important point you made - you'll be saved when Jesus returns


Beimg saved through faith, means we have the hope of salvation to come.


Receiving the salvation of our soul, is the end result of a life of faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Believe means trust, commit as well as obey.

Unbelief is Disobedience, as they are the same greek work.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

JPT

I already explained this to you in post #412. Read it again. Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief and unbelief is the root cause of why they did not enter therein. You error by defining belief as obedience which leads to salvation through faith + obedience/works. This is a common error taught in numerous false religions and cults, including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism, Seventh Day Adventistism etc..

I often hear works-salvationists use this same argument in regards to John 3:36 (NASB) - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not "obey" the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe in the Son. Receiving eternal life is not based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows faith in Christ, but we obey by choosing to believe in the Son, just as we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). *If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. So to obey the Son here is to believe in/on the Son.

In John 3:36, (KJV) - "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life".. *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

 

[justpassinthrough]

The demons believe in their head that Jesus is the Lord, but they do not confess Him as their Lord. They serve Satan (and not Jesus), which explains why they do not obey Jesus. If one has not placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, then Satan is still their lord no matter how much so called obedience that one attempts to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works.

Again, I never said we receive salvation by works.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

See God's word, Romans 10:9-10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Does this scripture say Believing alone in your heart unto salvation, or does it say confession is made unto salvation?

JPT

I already explained this passage of scripture to you numerous times, but unfortunately, you do not have ears to hear.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, I never said we receive salvation by works.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

JPT

Yes you do and you don't even seem to realize it.

 

[justpassinthrough]

You error by defining belief as obedience which leads to salvation through faith + obedience/works.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say.

I do not claim that we are saved by works.


JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Agreed.

Extremely important point you made - you'll be saved when Jesus returns

Beimg saved through faith, means we have the hope of salvation to come.

Receiving the salvation of our soul, is the end result of a life of faith.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

JPT

We are saved NOW - "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith/having been justified by faith" (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1 - Justification). The end of our faith - final sanctification or glorification. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification)

 

[mailmandan]

Please stop misrepresenting what I say.

I do not claim that we are saved by works.

JPT

Then admit that we are saved through faith and not by works in general. I'm yet to hear you say that in any of your posts.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The demons believe in their head that Jesus is the Lord, but they do not confess Him as their Lord.

Please post the scripture that says people or devils can believe with their head.

• Even the demons believe—and tremble!

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19-20

• faith without works is dead?

Do you claim that dead faith can save?




JPT

 

[OneFaith]

That is not true. Some pretenders might believe this, but genuinely saved Christians understand that they have renounced the world, the flesh, and the devil. But no Christian is sinlessly perfect, and those who fall examine themselves, confess, and repent, so that they are not under the dominion of sin.

That is NOT the basis of salvation. You must obey the Gospel, and be born again in order to go to Heaven. Believers are justified by grace through faith, not by works of righteousness or obedience which they have done. And those who are justified are guaranteed to be glorified. See Romans 8.

You said yourself "You must obey the gospel, and be born again in order to go to heaven." Therefore you admit obedience is a requirement at some point. "Must" means our salvation depends on it. The bible is not written to the worldly, only to Christians. Therefore all the 'musts' and 'ifs' in the bible are directed at us. Such as "Each of you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." That is an ongoing process- you fear to disobey God and work on ridding sins from your life, and this is a must (salvation-dependant) for every christian. If you don't have this effort then you sin on purpose, and the bible says "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." Our obedience cannot earn salvation, therefore when God chooses who to give grace to He can choose to give it to those who obey Him. We do not obey in order to earn heaven, we obey to match God's choice of recipients.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I push works in the same way the Bible does--not for justification, but so you'll be saved when Jesus returns, not turned away. Dead faith can not save.

Just for clatification so that people don't stumble over the word works, please do me a favor and pick the minimum works from the list below that, in your opinion, a person must do to be saved. If you select Other, please explain.

1. Partake of communion
2. Attend Church
3. Visit widows and orphans
4. Feed the poor
5. Not practice sin
6. Grow in faith
7. Other

 

[justpassinthrough]

We are saved NOW - "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith/having been justified by faith"

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


Faith is the substance of things "hoped for".


In this life we have faith for salvation, which means we have hope for salvation to come when Jesus returns and we stand before Him on the Day of Judgemnent, to be judged according to our deeds.


10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10



Paul says it this way -

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Then admit that we are saved through faith and not by works in general.

I have said it many times, we are saved, ie born again, regenerated, through faith, by obeying the Gospel message, not by doing good works, or by keeping the law of Moses.


We will receive the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement, when the Lord Himself says these words -


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Please post the scripture that says people or devils can believe with their head.

To believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" is to believe in your head. Are you implying that demons believe in their heart unto righteousness? It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." That is believing in your head, yet it's another thing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. That is believing in your heart.

Even the demons believe—and tremble!
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19-20

Once again, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. *Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. The lack of works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. It's not hard to understand. Just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Do you claim that dead faith can save?

Of course not and only a living faith saves and produces works.

 

[garee]

I never said Abraham was saved by works.

The dicussion is about faith, and how faith operates or functions to produce the intended divine result.


The principle of faith is that it requires obedience for it to become activated or alive, otherwise it is dead, as a body without a spirit is dead, and does not function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Again, the "works" James is describing is obedience: the effort obedience requires.



Read the bible.



JLB

We are saved by a work of Christ's faith or labor of Christ's love. He works his works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure .It is God who can make our hearts soft .He performs that which is appointed to us according to Job 23:11-16

My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, "even that he doeth". For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23

The James 2 account below when understood correctly .I will paraphrase it according to my understanding in blue

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:21-23

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how Christ's faith wrought with Christ's works, and by Christ's works was Christ's work of faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was "imputed" unto Abraham for righteousness: and Abraham was called the Friend of God. James 2:21-23

If we would attribute the faith of Christ as the work of Christ that works in us to Abraham we would be blaspheming the Holy name/ authority by which we are called heavenward. (verse 7)

It is the mistake the apostate Jews performed by having the faith of God in respect to that seen, Abraham. Therefore blaspheming the holy name by which we are called heavenward .We walk by faith the unseen and not by sight looking at the flesh hoping it could profit for something. Christ said think not or wonder not .

Matthew 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

its the same thing the Catholic do with the name Peter call a man on earth father . Both the Jew and the Catholic usurp the authority of our father in heaven that way by giving it to men seen,

Our new faith as a work not of ourselves is the free gift. We cannot separate the belief(faith) of God from the work of God who again works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Why would any complain?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You're on very dangerous territory. You're making James fit your preconceived theology instead of letting James form your theology for you. I've never seen that happen to such a degree than I do in the once saved always saved movement.

I'm not sure who you're commenting to, but IMO people who so stridently fight against any type of work are those who have become work-phobic from once being enslaved to doctrines that teach people have to do certain things to be justified.

 

[OneFaith]

Then admit that we are saved through faith and not by works in general. I'm yet to hear you say that in any of your posts.

Yes, we are saved through faith but we are not saved by faith. Let's say for example there is a vicious dog chasing you down the sidewalk. The sidewalk splits into three paths- one leads to your neighbours house, one leads into the street, and one leads to your house. Which path do you go though to be saved from the dog? The path to your house- because that path leads you to safety. If you choose this correct path and stop there, you will be mauled. You are not safe until you are in the house.

Faith leads people to Christ (baptism without faith just gets you wet, not saved) but it is not until you are in Christ that you are saved. (and the only way the bible says we get in Christ is to be baptised into Christ) This is what through faith means. Simply having faith (belief) that God exists does not save you- even demons believe in God.

Obedience cannot earn salvation, therefore God's criteria for choosing who to give grace to can be to those who obey Him, just like He can choose any other criteria of things that cannot earn the gift. He does not choose to give grace to those who will not obey Him, but only to those who will, and not just once, but on an ongoing basis.