Obedience, Oh No!

[Latour]

Nope, no way.........I'm being told that I do not have to do the will of the Father to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was wrong about this one.

yeah...He was good so I don't have to be. He was loving so I don't have to be. He did the Father's will so I don't have to. All I have to do is to stop believing in Thor or Godzilla for salvation and just trust that Jesus will overlook everything I do...and that's it!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are you following Judaism? What does the law of Moses have to do with anything? Do you realize that Paul was referring to outward circumcision? THAT's what keeping the law is about...not obedience to God.

Keeping the law of Moses is living in it and doing it. All of it. Circumcision was only one commandment in the law.

 

[Latour]

That's not the entire picture. With circumcision came the responsibility to live under and do the law of Moses. That is the yoke that Peter said in the council Israel was unable to bear.

If we are circumcised by the law then we are responsible for every part of the law. It's called Judaism.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Which is completely inappicable in this thread.

Messianic believers don't defend the law as the way to be justified righteous before God. They defend it the same way the few of us left in the church defend 'do not murder' as the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith. See the difference between that and what you said?

It's fine and wonderful to defend the law of Moses. Do you understand the difference between walking by faith and walking by the letter?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If we are circumcised by the law then we are responsible for every part of the law. It's called Judaism.

Call it what you will, that was the law of the old covenant, which the believing pharisees were trying to bring believing gentiles under.

 

[Studyman]

I have no idea how you come to the that conclusion by what I have posted.
I am not the one pushing the keeping of the Law. I am the one objecting to such heresy.
Jesus is our High Priest. We are to answer only to Him. We are not under any obligation to keep the Law given to Israel. We are to keep the commands of Jesus.
To rely on the "works of the Law" would indeed make the sacrifice of Christ of non effect.

I asked a question of you.

"So if I don't bring a goat to the Levite Priest for atonement of my sins, I am just as guilty as if I murdered my neighbor?"

You answered.

If you believe that one must keep the Law as given to Israel through Moses,, yes.
Both are sin and breaking the Law.

But the Law and Prophets say over and over that God desired obedience, not sacrifice, and He gave us a promise of the New Covenant that I posed in reply to your post.

How is it a sin to follow the Law and the Prophets in regards to the Priesthood? If I or Paul or Jesus wasn't following the Law and the Prophets, how would they even know about the New Covenant and what it is?

And to be honest, I did say I wasn't interested in this law or that law, rather, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Does that make me a promoter of "Hersey" in your religion?

 

[Latour]

Call it what you will, that was the law of the old covenant, which the believing pharisees were trying to bring believing gentiles under.

But nobody here is trying to convert anybody to Judaism. We are all under grace....but we need to obey grace ...not just hide behind it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved by obedience. It is the doers of the law that are justified. There is no law against love. Those who love obey the law...and are justified.

You have it wrong,

We love because he loved first,

He loves us by justifying us,

Those those who are justified love, and by this love we have been given, we love in return, and thus we are obedient.

No one obeys the law, the law proves our sin, that was its purpose.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But nobody here is trying to convert anybody to Judaism. We are all under grace....but we need to obey grace ...not just hide behind it.

We don't obey grace. We obey GOD by believing and doing Jesus' and his apostles words.

 

[Latour]

We don't obey grace. We obey GOD by believing and doing Jesus' and his apostles words.

if a person is brainwashed they can only parrot the wording they have heard. All other wordings will be seen as false even if the meaning is the same because fundamentally a brainwashed person doesn't understand what he has been brainwashed to believe. This is VERY current in the church today with pulpiteers fooling people with nice sounding words that speak lies and fables...just as it was prophesied in the bible. So... let's try different wordings. Feel free to google just to be sure!

is it possible to "frustrate" the grace of God?

Is it possible to "obey" the gospel?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

if a person is brainwashed they can only parrot the wording they have heard. All other wordings will be seen as false even if the meaning is the same because fundamentally a brainwashed person doesn't understand what he has been brainwashed to believe. This is VERY current in the church today with pulpiteers fooling people with nice sounding words that speak lies and fables...just as it was prophesied in the bible. So... let's try different wordings. Feel free to google just to be sure!

is it possible to "frustrate" the grace of God?

Is it possible to "obey" the gospel?

When you get ready to say something apart from wagging the finger in a disapproving tone and trying to make points by asking questions, I'll be here.

 

[Latour]

When you get ready to say something apart from wagging the finger in a disapproving tone and trying to make points by asking questions, I'll be here.

Holding up a mirror is all. The forum here is impersonal. No one uses their real names. So go ahead and take a peek.

 

[Latour]

When you get ready to say something apart from wagging the finger in a disapproving tone and trying to make points by asking questions, I'll be here.

is it possible to "frustrate" the grace of God?

Is it possible to "obey" the gospel?

 

[Jackson123]

If the law is instructional how can it be irrelevant. If the law ever was a tudor/teacher then is still is. As Pauls says:

Rom. 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Granted we will never be able to keep the law, that is why we have grace. If the law defines sin, is still gives us a direction. If anyone on this forum could keep the two great commandments perfectly, then they would not have to do the law.

Paul goes on in Romans:

Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

We worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24). Keeping the commandments is the least of our service, which we will not do perfectly. Thank God that Jesus made that unnecessary.

View attachment 184388

Yes we have to keep commandment but wich, there is old commandment and New.
We not keep old, no animal sacrifice, no observe Saturday sabbath, but keep new one by accept Jesus and His teaching

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

is it possible to "frustrate" the grace of God?

Is it possible to "obey" the gospel?

Yes it's possible to obey the gospel because it is Jesus' and his apostles' words.

Ditto to GOD's grace. But we don't obey grace because it is not a law. It is an aspect of GOD's nature.

 

[Ralph-]

That's certainly not what I'm saying. I'm simply (apparently) disagreeing with your understanding of how that's done.

Yes, and that's what I was trying to get you to see.

The law of Moses did not go away. We uphold it in the NEW WAY of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written word itself (Romans 7:6).

"6But now, by dying to what once bound us (the flesh), we have been released from the law (to keep us bound to the flesh) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."-Romans 7:6

"there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (of Moses-see vs.28)."-Romans 3:30-31

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If the law is instructional how can it be irrelevant. If the law ever was a tudor/teacher then is still is. As Pauls says:

The difference between now and then is that then the law was a tutor that could discipline its students, and now the law is no longer a tutor that can discipline because it has led us to Christ, and we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[Jackson123]

Don't confuse Judaism...the maw of Moses...with the law of God...which is to love. Love fulfills the law.

Yep love is fulfillment of the law, love is in our heart. We may give money to other without love.

 

[Ralph-]

It's fine and wonderful to defend the law of Moses. Do you understand the difference between walking by faith and walking by the letter?

I do.

I was hoping to get you to see that it's not a matter of what law believers keep but rather HOW we keep the law.

 

[Latour]

Yes it's possible to obey the gospel because it is Jesus' and his apostles' words.

Ditto to GOD's grace. But we don't obey grace because it is not a law. It is an aspect of GOD's nature.

Grace is the new law. It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is the law that overcomes sin. Like the law of flight that overcomes the law of gravity. So then abiding in Christ is like abiding in a airplane. In Christ we overcome si, the devil and the world. In a plane we just overcome the law of gravity. So then grace IS law.

I think you are confusing grace with mercy....which IS an aspect of God's character.