Obedience, Oh No!
- Thread starter JaumeJ
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Paul was speaking rhetorically regarding those who were under the law of Moses and gloried in it to make the point that the law was only beneficial to them if they actually did the law. There is no law against love and faith because that is Christ's law that supersedes and subsumes the law of Moses.
Actually the only NEW commandment was to love as Jesus loved (sacrificially). Otherwise ALL of the laws about love are from the OT.
You may be too disrespectful of the bible. The early Christians had only the OT and they did rather well. Look at today...we have a NT that almost no one understands properly and the church condition...terrible.
I think we need to go back to the OT and get the questions right. THEN we can go to the NT and find the answers.
R
That's exactly how we know James is NOT saying the same thing Paul is about justification.
James is NOT saying a man is justified (MADE righteous) by works. He is saying a man is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by works. That means if you can't show yourself to have the righteousness of Christ by what you do you probably don't have the righteousness of Christ you think you do. That's not a works gospel. But I know that is the only way you can see it as being.
You say a person does not have to have works to be saved. But you will be lost when Jesus comes back if you do not have works to accompany your faith when Jesus comes back because faith in Christ sets you free from the bondage of sin. If you aren't set free from the bondage of sin you don't have the righteousness of Christ through faith that you think you do. Don't change the scriptures. Instead, get your life right.
That's not the same use of 'justification' that James is using. No comparison possible that somehow nullifies what James said.
You can't apply Paul's use of 'justification' to James' use of 'justification'. You probably did not know this, but 'justification' has more than one definition (check it for yourself). James is using one definition, Paul is using another. That is what is causing people in the church to reject outright what James is saying. And the leadership is helping them do that.
By virtue of receiving the free gift you are separated from the power of the flesh. That's why works of righteousness are required of the one who has the free gift. But you can only see that as meaning the requirement for works means we earn a declaration of right standing with God.
But I know all this is meaningless to you because you apparently came to Christ to only get saved, not to be changed. That's why it is futile to try and change people who insist they do not have to have works to be saved. They did not come to Christ to be delievered from sin. They came to Christ for the 'get out of jail' free card. It's futile to teach the truth to them.
James is NOT saying a man is justified (MADE righteous) by works. He is saying a man is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by works. That means if you can't show yourself to have the righteousness of Christ by what you do you probably don't have the righteousness of Christ you think you do. That's not a works gospel. But I know that is the only way you can see it as being.
You say a person does not have to have works to be saved. But you will be lost when Jesus comes back if you do not have works to accompany your faith when Jesus comes back because faith in Christ sets you free from the bondage of sin. If you aren't set free from the bondage of sin you don't have the righteousness of Christ through faith that you think you do. Don't change the scriptures. Instead, get your life right.
That's not the same use of 'justification' that James is using. No comparison possible that somehow nullifies what James said.
You can't apply Paul's use of 'justification' to James' use of 'justification'. You probably did not know this, but 'justification' has more than one definition (check it for yourself). James is using one definition, Paul is using another. That is what is causing people in the church to reject outright what James is saying. And the leadership is helping them do that.
By virtue of receiving the free gift you are separated from the power of the flesh. That's why works of righteousness are required of the one who has the free gift. But you can only see that as meaning the requirement for works means we earn a declaration of right standing with God.
But I know all this is meaningless to you because you apparently came to Christ to only get saved, not to be changed. That's why it is futile to try and change people who insist they do not have to have works to be saved. They did not come to Christ to be delievered from sin. They came to Christ for the 'get out of jail' free card. It's futile to teach the truth to them.
What do you mean by "after salvation"? Are you still alive on Earth? If so, then you are still in the PROCESS of being saved. Life is a race. If we draw back we will be rejected. If we don't do the will of God...we will be rejected. But those who endure to the end shall be saved. THAT'S what the bible says.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! (yes this is actually in the bible)
PS. READ the bible.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! (yes this is actually in the bible)
PS. READ the bible.
R
Which is completely inappicable in this thread.
Messianic believers don't defend the law as the way to be justified righteous before God. They defend it the same way the few of us left in the church defend 'do not murder' as the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith. See the difference between that and what you said?
Messianic believers don't defend the law as the way to be justified righteous before God. They defend it the same way the few of us left in the church defend 'do not murder' as the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith. See the difference between that and what you said?
R
If you understand the question it works very nicely. It's the technique Jesus used. But, yes, if you don't understand the question it won't do anything.
The point is, if Paul talked about the better way of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (which he did), does that mean he was under the old covenant? It has to mean that according to what people are saying in this thread about what they believe about the law, but of course they will contradict their own argument and say he was not. That's the point.
The point is, if Paul talked about the better way of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (which he did), does that mean he was under the old covenant? It has to mean that according to what people are saying in this thread about what they believe about the law, but of course they will contradict their own argument and say he was not. That's the point.
The first believers in Jesus were all Jewish. As Gentile believers came into the fold there was a question whether these should first convert to Judaism (since Jesus was Jewish). Paul defended the new converts as being in Christ and therefore under grace. No need to be under the Jewish law. No need to become Jews. THAT is the context of not being under the law. We do not first become Jews. No need to be outwardly circumcised if we are circumcised inwardly.