Not By Works

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mailmandan said:
If he who believes in Him is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already.. (John 3:18) then any other reason would be fatalistic determination.
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Not so. That involves an impersonal force. The whole human race fell in Adam. All we condemned. We were born condemned already. The elect were just as as wicked as the non-elect. There was nothing in them that moved God to save them. You said He elected those He knew would be willing to be saved. He saves them based upon what they do, not what He did through His Son.

God knows the beginning from the end in regards to election and receiving a free gift isn't about doing something that merits eternal life. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)
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Yet, you keep saying His election is based upon those He knows will be willing. Yes, Christ saves us through faith, but this faith is a gift of God that is given at the point of regeneration (so is repentance) and they exercise them and are saved. You’re saying they exercise faith and are saved. The bible says they are saved and exercise faith. These happen simultaneously.

Believers need to repent or perish? No, unbelievers need to repent or perish. "Toward you" is addressed in general. John 3:16 reads "whosoever believes in Him" shall not perish, but have eternal life and not whosoever was fortunate enough to be elected based on God's mysterious purpose shall not perish, but have eternal life.
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Towards you is written to believers my friend. That was Peter‘s target audience.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. In Luke 19:10, we read - "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
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That parable shows how He actively seeks out His lost sheep.
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Verse 13 qualifies those who received Him are. No spinning, just exegeting the texts.

If I misunderstood your post, I offer you my sincerest apology.
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it’s all good thank you

Yes they do qualify who it is not

But the verse qualifies who it is

those who receive him

Not by blood (not by birth)
Not by the flesh (not if our own power understanding or self will. Because the flesh would never choose salvation)
Not by the will of man (my parents my spouse my children etc etc )
but by God
 
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eternally-gratefull said:
Well we have heard two possibilities from mailman dan and you
how about a third
he created billions and billions of people and puts them all under sin so that the gift of salvation can be offered to all. Knowing billions in the end will be saved and the rest have no one to blame but themselves. Because they had the same opportunity and rejected it
I think the third choice resembles the god who is a god of justice while also a god of love more aptly than the other two
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But what about the billions upon billions He created that He knew would never be saved? In spite of all the witnessing, crying, begging, pleading with them, they die lost? He still created them anyways. Why? Why create them knowing He’d have to punish them anyway?
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
I’m going to flip this back at you. What would be the point of God creating billions and billions of ppl He knew would never receive Him and then casting them headlong into an eternal hell? Knowing no amount of begging, pleading, crying for their souls, witnessing to them, they’d never be willing to receive Him. He knew beforehand(according to your side of this debate) they‘d never be willing to receive Him, yet He created them anyways. Why? Riddle me this.
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Only God could fully explain why, yet God is a God of love and justice and created man for Himself. (Colossians 1:16; Revelation 4:11)

EG made a good point that knowing billions in the end will be saved and the rest have no one to blame but themselves. Because they had the same opportunity and rejected it. The bottom line is that man has a choice. (John 3:16,18; Acts 16:31; 2 Peter 3:9)
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
But what about the billions upon billions He created that He knew would never be saved? In spite of all the witnessing, crying, begging, pleading with them, they die lost? He still created them anyways. Why? Why create them knowing He’d have to punish them anyway?
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Is it Gods fault they were not saved
or is HE vindicated because although they knew him they hid him in their hearts and replaced him with earthly things. Thus being without excuse (romans 1)
 
I see @preacher4truth is back

To get back to our last conversation. Are you going to explain to me how Adam in a perfect state needed grace and salvation of God (before the fall)
 
Well I must say; I see an improvement in everyone’s behavior in this thread since the fear of banning was put on everyone who would sin against the moderator’s precept.

Perhaps a little fear of God and the lake of fire could do the same in our lives within and outside this chat board regarding sin in general. :)

Something to think about.
 
Micaiah-imla said:
Well I must say; I see an improvement in everyone’s behavior in this thread since the fear of banning was put on everyone who would sin against the moderator’s precept.

Perhaps a little fear of God and the lake of fire could do the same in our lives within and outside this chat board regarding sin in general. :)

Something to think about.
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Feat?
jesus preaches peace not Fear

We are told we are not given the spirit of fear but of a sound Mind

We are told to enter his rest

Fear comes from the law. Not from the gospel
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Not so. That involves an impersonal force.
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How would that make God an impersonal force? Like I said before, I guess I will never understand that logic.

You said He elected those He knew would be willing to be saved. He saves them based upon what they do, not what He did through His Son.
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Man is saved through faith based on what Jesus did.

Yet, you keep saying His election is based upon those He knows will be willing. Yes, Christ saves us through faith, but this faith is a gift of God that is given at the point of regeneration (so is repentance) and they exercise them and are saved. You’re saying they exercise faith and are saved. The bible says they are saved and exercise faith. These happen simultaneously.
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So man is selectively zapped with faith and has no choice in the matter? 1 Peter 1:9 says receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. How is it our faith if we never exercised it?

Towards you is written to believers my friend. That was Peter‘s target audience.
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How many letters are addressed to unbelievers? Yet unbelievers are discussed many times in letters addressed to believers. Just because a letter is written to believers does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letter is a believer. 1 John 2 is written to "My little children" -- (believers) yet in verse 19, we read - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." -- (unbelievers)

That parable shows how He actively seeks out His lost sheep.
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Jesus does activity seek out His lost sheep, but that does not mean that His lost sheep are completely passive in being found. Jesus mentions lost sheep of the house of Israel twice in the book of Matthew.
 
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Micaiah-imla said:
Well I must say; I see an improvement in everyone’s behavior in this thread since the fear of banning was put on everyone who would sin against the moderator’s precept.

Perhaps a little fear of God and the lake of fire could do the same in our lives within and outside this chat board regarding sin in general. :)

Something to think about.
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Oh and by the way. If we are obeying only because we are afraid of what may happen. And not because we should be doing it in the first place. We will
Fail.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
jesus preaches peace not Fear
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Luke 12:4-5
[4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. [5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
 
mailmandan said:
How would that make God an impersonal force? Like I said before, I guess I will never understand that logic.
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Fatalism is an impersonal force, not God. You comparing fatalism to election is a horrible faux pas.

Man is saved through faith based on what Jesus did.
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And yet, this faith is a gift of God given at the point of regeneration. At that point, and not before, they exercise faith and repentance and are saved. That’s why God knows who will have faith, as He gifts it to the elect at the point of salvation.

So man is selectively zapped with faith and has no choice in the matter? 1 Peter 1:9 says receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. How is it our faith if we never exercised it?
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If I give you a Porshe, with the title and keys, it’s yours. Trust me, I’m not doing that, as I can’t afford one for myself. :) :D God gives us faith and it’s our to exercise.

How many letters are addressed to unbelievers? Yet unbelievers are discussed many times in letters addressed to believers. Just because a letter is written to believers does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letter is a believer. 1 John 2 is written to "My little children" -- (believers) yet in verse 19, we read - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." -- (unbelievers)
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None of the books are addressed to them. They cannot even understand it in their fallen state.

Jesus does activity seek out His lost sheep, but that does not mean that His lost sheep are completely passive in being found. Jesus mentions lost sheep of the house of Israel twice in the book of Matthew.
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They’re not passive. In fact, they are living a life in direct rebellion to God. They are actually fleeing from them when He finds them. That’s why He had to seek them out.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Fatalism is an impersonal force, not God. You comparing fatalism to election is a horrible faux pas.
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If election is not based whatsoever on man’s free will to choose Christ involving God’s foreknowledge, then all you’re left with is fatalistic determination based on mysterious reasons, since we are all sinners and none of us deserve God’s mercy and grace. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)
 
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Micaiah-imla said:
Luke 12:4-5
[4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. [5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
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Can’t argue with the scripture you share, but remember brother, Jesus also states we have no need to fear, “for it is our Heavenly Father’s good pleasure to give us the Kingdom”. Luke 12
 
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