Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull said:
What about Romans 4 then,

that say works have no bearing on our faith or our salvation ?

and also, James said faith plus no works

how many works then would it take to prove faith?
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Considering the context of Pauls words at Romans 4 helps. Circumcised Jews under Mosaic law mistakenly believed works in adherence to the law they would be saved. Paul makes it clear nobody can be saved by works. He then cites the example of Abraham who was declared righteous not because of works or circumcision, but because of his exemplary faith. But why can we say Abraham had exemplary faith? What proves this to you? Did Abraham just say I have exemplary faith and do nothing to show that? Or rather did he prove his exemplary faith by actions [works in demonstration of his faith]. The answer to these questions I believe is given at James 2:21-26.
 
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Guojing said:
If works is required, than salvation has to be earned.
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Through faith one is saved. But faith without works is dead James 2:26. Our faith needs to be a living faith demonstrated by works of faith, otherwise according to scripture our faith will be considered lifeless, dead in God's eyes. Would you say because the demons believe in Jesus they are saved? Certainly not! because they work in opposition to God. Something more than saying we believe or have faith is required for it to count with God.
 
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azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.)

Turning justification into on ongoing process by some sort of works of faith seem to be in conflict with the above
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Not at all, notice there it says we shall be saved not we have been saved. It's a past-present-and future situation. Salvation is not something that happens at a given point in our lives as if one day we were unsaved and the next saved. The justification begins with a declaration that is then made reality. If it is not becoming reality than there is no such declaration.

For people who claim to confess Christ as Lord you all sure resist actually allowing Him to be master of your lives.
 
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Bbrdrd said:
As I said, it's the setting Paul presented. We take it as a court proceeding where the question is a matter of guilt/culpability. Paul presents an image of a king accepting a subject and declaring them to be within right standing again. Looking purely at the dictionary doesn't give the full picture of a words connotations, and "innocent" can have a number of different meanings depending on setting. Since Augustine it's been treated in a very forensic manner rather than the looser but still apt description of being brought back into a kings good graces.

Protestant theologians have turned the real experience of being brought back in into a legal fiction where God plays the fool. That's not what Paul was getting at at all.
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He culminates the victorious life of faith in Romans 8 - a life lived not according to the sinful nature anymore but in accordance with the Holy Spirit. Amen!
 
Bbrdrd said:
Not at all, notice there it says we shall be saved not we have been saved. It's a past-present-and future situation.
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Even so, it's still the blood that justifies.

For people who claim to confess Christ as Lord you all sure resist actually allowing Him to be master of your lives.
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Highly presumptuous.

The resistance is against your statements/theology.

What you are doing is adding justification to justification.
 
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azamzimtoti said:
Even so, it's still the blood that justifies.



Highly presumptuous.

The resistance is against your statements/theology.
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Who's disputing that it's the blood that justifies?

My statements have been to simply say that if you don't have works you don't have faith, and that salvation comes with abiding in God's terms. There's this high-minded approach to trying to resist theologically, but its a splitting of the truth into little packets that the Bible doesn't divide them into. There is no salvation without sanctification so to theologically oppose someone for speaking of the necessity of it belies a more personal rejection.
 
Finepearl said:
Through faith one is saved. But faith without works is dead James 2:26. Our faith needs to be a living faith demonstrated by works of faith, otherwise according to scripture our faith will be considered lifeless, dead in God's eyes. Would you say because the demons believe in Jesus they are saved? Certainly not! because they work in opposition to God. Something more than saying we believe or have faith is required for it to count with God.
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Demons don’t believe in Jesus, they acknowledge His divinity. You’re right however regarding their opposition to God.
 
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Bbrdrd said:
Who's disputing that it's the blood that justifies?

My statements have been to simply say that if you don't have works you don't have faith, and that salvation comes with abiding in God's terms. There's this high-minded approach to trying to resist theologically, but its a splitting of the truth into little packets that the Bible doesn't divide them into. There is no salvation without sanctification so to theologically oppose someone for speaking of the necessity of it belies a more personal rejection.
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The "personal" rejection is of your ideas. I'm not buying what you're selling.

You keep word salading around.

(1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God )
 
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EleventhHour said:
You make it a work
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Having faith is not work.
Faith is diametrically opposed to and contrasted with work:

"to the one who does not work but trusts God" - Romans 4:5

"12The law (work) is not based on faith; on the contrary" - Galatians 3:12

You are the one making 'believing' work when the Bible says it is not.


.
 
Bbrdrd said:
There's far too much here to get into, and I have no interest in a spat that goes quite as theologically deep as is required for such a disagreement. Essentially, though, you're camping on a handful of verses and neglecting the bulk of the witness of Scripture. It can be said to be a past event, but salvation is presented throughout Scripture as something that has an ongoing component not simply a once-and-done matter.
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In other words you have no desire to discuss the most important topic in scripture. But your Ok to discuss Something you believe in
I guess this says it all
I do have a question though if you do not want to discuss. Why are you in a thread where that is the main topic?
as for as you think most of the bible says otherwise. Well you said you have no desire to discuss it. Or the passage I brought up. So I guess it’s a mute point

[quote-]As for James, the whole reason I bring it up is specifically to highlight that those who place a division between works and saving faith are not presenting a Biblical picture of saving faith. There is no separation, no faith without works. There's no need to get into a number because the whole point is to demonstrate a dimension of faith that many explicitly deny. OSAS proponents set Paul against James and then try to stifle James by speaking of context issues they never define so we can't talk about if they actually are there or not.[/QUOTE]
You do not get it. The people in here who are using it say James is saying we can lose salvation. Nothing in the text states this. So you you keep bringing it up. All we can do is assume your just like them
 
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