Not By Works

[Discern]

Now, what about going back to unbelief, like the Galatians did.This is the issue that does not get addressed well. Everyone gets hung up on works.

What happened with the Galatians was a kind of syncretism, adding the Law and its observances to the Gospel, which in effect if embraced would have nullified Christ’s work. Very serious. Paul dealt with it, and there is no reason not to believe that those who knew God heeded and responded rightly to Paul’s warning, admonition, and instruction.

How do we know? Because John wrote “whoever is of God hears us (apostles), so it follows that whoever does not hear when it comes to apostolic authority and essential salvation issues, is not of God.

Those who were of God would have received Paul’s words, just as those who are of God today receive them, (and all of scripture as well) not as words of man, but as they are in truth, the very words of GOD

 

[Discern]

What happened with the Galatians was a kind of syncretism, adding the Law and its observances to the Gospel, which in effect if embraced would have nullified Christ’s work. Very serious. Paul dealt with it, and there is no reason not to believe that those who knew God heeded and responded rightly to Paul’s warning, admonition, and instruction.

How do we know? Because John wrote “whoever is of God hears us (apostles), so it follows that whoever does not hear when it comes to apostolic authority and essential salvation issues, is not of God.

Those who were of God would have received Paul’s words, just as those who are of God today receive them, (and all of scripture as well) not as words of man, but as they are in truth, the very words of GOD

To simplify...

1. In matters of doctrine, those who are born of God hear God by hearing and obeying the Word of God.

2. In matters of practice, those who are born of God hear God by hearing and obeying the Word of God.

Are we perfect in this? No. But we are pressing forward by the One who works in us both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure.

 

[Chris1975]

Now, what about going back to unbelief, like the Galatians did.This is the issue that does not get addressed well. Everyone gets hung up on works.

Are you sure he was a Christian man? Sounds like a straw man argument to me. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..

Lets look at the Amplified bible which at times can bring nuances out in English that more simplified versions of the direct translation cannot, due to its limited direct translation limitations:

1 John 3v9
9 No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because [a]God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.

You asked, was he a Christian man, to which I respond in my original example that at one stage he was. Yet he was drawn away by his desires. See James 1

James 1
12 Blessed [happy, spiritually prosperous, favored by God] is the man who is steadfast under trial and perseveres when tempted; for when he has passed the test and been approved, he will receive the [victor’s] crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God” [for temptation does not originate from God, but from our own flaws]; for God cannot be tempted by [what is] evil, and He Himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away, enticed and baited [to commit sin] by his own [worldly] desire (lust, passion). 15 Then when the illicit desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin has run its course, it gives birth to death.

Was the Christian man once a believer? Sure. But when the temptation came, he toyed with the idea that salvation was eternally secure, and with no eternal consequences he could indulge a little. He reasoned within himself that God was quite benevolent and willing to overlook the odd discretion here and there. He didn't judge himself. Didn't heed various warnings written to the church about clinging to the faith, turning from evil, obeying the Lords commands, crucifying the flesh and its desires. Even when that still small voice was telling him that what he was doing was wrong, he quitened it down, reasoning within himself that all could be swept under the carpet tomorrow "for tomorrow I will ask forgiveness, but today we play". He rejected Repentance teachings because he had been told that he had already repented 15 years ago and no further repentance was required. Well, this is what he was taught in the church that he attended, and these people seem to know what they are talking about.

So when we look at the 1 John 3v9 verse above, and share the scriptures on holiness, we see such an intense kickback. Why should there be a kickback if what is shared is the undiluted word of God. Simply sharing scriptures, we are called works salvationists. Well the word of God is a sharp sword, and it offends many. Possibly those who kick back against SCRIPTURE are those with the most to lose if those scriptures actually happen to truly mean what they plainly say. It would mean a change to lifestyles, which I suspect some may not want to give up on. Because some might reason that it is "nicer" to be eternally secure and dip into and out of sins in this world, than to give up all, take up their CROSS and follow him. I suspect the price might be too high for some.

Now, Mailmandan, you and I both know that there is sin in the church. Many times this even makes mainstrem news headlines. SO WHAT if holiness scriptures are posted, so that those who practice such things come under conviction and choose repentance? Would that not be better? Instead we PASSIFY people in their sins, telling them DONT WORRY, THERE IS NO DANGER, because you are eternally secure. And a little yeast works its way through the whole batch. Want to know why the church is not operating at anywhere near potential? Because people who claim to believe (like I'm sure everybody here does) yet have continual compromise in their lives. To these there will be a revelation of God's righteous judgements in that Day (Romans 2v4-9).

You posit that these people were NOT REALLY BELIEVERS.I know your doctrine. To which I reply that EVERY BELIEVER has Flesh, Soul and Spirit. It is to the BELIEVERS that Paul writes to put to death the misdeeds of the body. He is not writing to unbelievers there. And this makes sense. But I know that will not fit your doctrine (with respect we have had much debate over the years). Those who are Born of God will not continue in Sin. That is true. Then my holiness scriptures should not OFFEND anyone. But yet they do? Makes you think, doesn't it.

Those who are born of God confess "speak the same/acknowledge/agree" with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness. I'm sure there are people who may have walked the aisle at church in the past and prayed the sinners prayer believing that just because they recited that prayer (even though there was no genuine repentance and faith) that they are now safe and secure no matter how much they live like the devil. Such people demonstrate a bogus conversion.

In regards to 1 John 1:9, notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). 1 John 1:9 is not about confessing each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast," as some teach.

Yet some OSASSERS here believe that Repentance is not necessary. Tell me MMD, does a believer need to REPENT? You have answered in the affirmative yesterday. Please then tell somes of your OSAS friends because they don't believe its necessary. Yes, one person whom I shall not name said that you repent at conversion. And since REPENT means a "Change of Mind" this in fact (humourously) implies sinless perfection. They have stumbled across sinless perfection because their minds cannot be off track as believers because their minds were fully corrected at conversion. If they mock this very point I am making now, then I challenge them that that is what they imply if repentance is no longer necessary.

It's scriptural when properly understood. The real danger is with false conversions.
Matthews account of the sower shows that some believed for a while. We have been down that road already. For sure there ARE false conversions, but also true conversions but falling away. There is a spectrum.

You seem to be absolutely obsessed with attacking the OSAS doctrine. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I too opposed the OSAS doctrine and lived in fear and bondage to IN-security, which only resulted in misery. I've noticed ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works also strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.

I will say it for the umpteenth time. We are saved when we believe in Jesus and put our Trust in Him. The life therefrom is lived in the Spirit (who tells us to put to death the misdeeds of the body). The bible tells us that there still is very much a war between the flesh and Spirit, but the victory is ours because of the power found in his Grace (Grace includes power over sin). Yet I suspect some people (gnosticise or spiritualise sin - as sort of "no longer existing"). The truth is there are dozens of scriptures confirming this still exists for believers. And the believer has a choice (in the Soul) as to whether to live according to the Flesh or the Spirit. You STILL make a choice daily. And sin is still deadly. For if you do not address it, we have the outcome of:

Romans 6 AMPLIFIED 15 What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under [God’s] grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that when you continually offer yourselves to someone to do his will, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey, either [slaves] of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (right standing with God)?

Sorry for delayed response, was out most of the day. In Red above.

 

[Discern]

Sorry for delayed response, was out most of the day. In Red above.

Posts 119,661 and post 119,662. Those who are of God hear God. Doesn’t get any simpler than that.

 

[Discern]

Posts 119,661 and post 119,662. Those who are of God hear God. Doesn’t get any simpler than that.

And I’m pretty confident MailmanDan would agree with this.

 

[VCO]

I am a "born from above" spiritual man inside this "shell of flesh", fighting the good fight! Having, by the grace of God, given an opportunity, of warring against "the adversary", which includes the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit!"
Fighting "fire with fire", one might say, in using the "same tools", f'rinstance, this thing called internet, in striving to "LESSEN THE VOID" caused by traditions and precepts of men, as opposed to "continually perpetuate" those traditions and precepts. In the "hopes", by my "standing?" That "others", like myself, can "see", they are not alone!

That they don't Have to "knuckle under", the "whack-a-mo" effect traditions and precepts of men have, and are continuing to do TO "the Word of God!" As a "result" of the "famine of the end times!"
Which is, as you SHOULD know is "NOT hearing the "word of God!"

Which, my "target audience", is NOT those who are not believers, who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. But "those" who have! Whose "ears" and "eyes" are STILL "not hearing", and STILL "not seeing" the "word of God" that is "constantly" coming forth FROM God, as He pours out His Spirit onto ALL flesh! (just "like" the parable of the different "types" of ground) NOT from the "mouths of the pulpit!"
But the "word" that comes right in betweenst one's "ears!"
BUT?....THIS TAKES MAINTENANCE! Also, perceived as "WORKS" FOR, or the maintaining OF ones' Salvation!
Meaning, the further one "travels the strait and narrow?" (Heb. 6:1) the MORE "maintenance" is REQUIRED in the "traveling!" Which is "why" there are "so FEW" that "find" it!

The "one" instance Jesus stated, is "the way of the spurious messiah!"
The "other" instance Jesus stated is the "TRUE AND HOLY" way!
(Matthew 7:13&14)

Which is why people like myself are "in shock", when met with such a ferocious resistance, from those "supposed" members of the "body of Christ", from these "other" members of the "body" of Christ, who are "not the SAME part AS themselves!
Frankly Johnny? It's astonishingly sad!

But? I reckon, this is what happens when one strains at gnats, when swallowing illusions, eh?

That's WHAT I am!

You NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION THAT I ASKED. WHAT DENOMINATION or Style of Church do you go to?

You said a LOT OF WORDS, without answering the QUESTION. Which means you would make a good Democratic Congressmen, and that leaves us questioning that you are actually a Born Again Christian? Give us you testimony, how you were Born Again? AND PLEASE START TO GIVE US EVIDENCE of the new nature of being born again?

 

[BillG]

@Chris1975

You say the following

Yet some OSASSERS here believe that Repentance is not necessary. Tell me MMD, does a believer need to REPENT? You have answered in the affirmative yesterday. Please then tell somes of your OSAS friends because they don't believe its necessary. Yes, one person whom I shall not name said that you repent at conversion. And since REPENT means a "Change of Mind" this in fact (humourously) implies sinless perfection. They have stumbled across sinless perfection because their minds cannot be off track as believers because their minds were fully corrected at conversion. If they mock this very point I am making now, then I challenge them that that is what they imply if repentance is no longer necessary.

Not sure if you think I am the person you mentioned above.
I don't think so but just in case.

I am a person who believes that we repent at conversion.
We repent of the sin the that Holy Spirit came to convict us off.
That sin being the sin of unbelief in Jesus.
That I have stated in this thread.

The basic of repent/repentance is

repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

turning away from our old direction as we turn to Christ.

At conversion we receive the the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to us when we sin.
As a result we confess that sin. Agree we got it wrong and ask God for help.

Is that how you understand repentance?

To be perfectly honest I cannot see how to repent implies sinless perfection.
Because we know that we will not be sinless until we go home (but I have seen a few on here who claim to be sinless, even telling me they never sinned since conversion)

So would be interested to know what you mean by repent after conversion.

 

[Discern]

@Chris1975

You say the following



Not sure if you think I am the person you mentioned above.
I don't think so but just in case.

I am a person who believes that we repent at conversion.
We repent of the sin the that Holy Spirit came to convict us off.
That sin being the sin of unbelief in Jesus.
That I have stated in this thread.

The basic of repent/repentance is

repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

turning away from our old direction as we turn to Christ.

At conversion we receive the the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to us when we sin.
As a result we confess that sin. Agree we got it wrong and ask God for help.

Is that how you understand repentance?

To be perfectly honest I cannot see how to repent implies sinless perfection.
Because we know that we will not be sinless until we go home (but I have seen a few on here who claim to be sinless, even telling me they never sinned since conversion)

So would be interested to know what you mean by repent after conversion.

Repent means to change ones mind. So anytime a Christian is engaging in sin, and the Holy Spirit convicts him or her, he or she confesses and repents ( changes mind about actions being taken.) It is not repentance unto salvation. That’s a one time deal

Example. I am arguing with my wife, and I begin to say hurtful words. I get convicted and feel terrible, so I stop and say I’m sorry for saying mean words. I also confess it to God.

That is a form of repentance, but it is not a repentance unto salvation. Not to be saved, but because I’m saved.

 

[Discern]

Repent means to change ones mind. So anytime a Christian is engaging in sin, and the Holy Spirit convicts him or her, he or she confesses and repents ( changes mind about actions being taken.) It is not repentance unto salvation. That’s a one time deal

Example. I am arguing with my wife, and I begin to say hurtful words. I get convicted and feel terrible, so I stop and say I’m sorry for saying mean words. I also confess it to God.

That is a form of repentance, but it is not a repentance unto salvation. Not to be saved, but because I’m saved.

Sorry to Bill for answering a question directed to Chris

 

[BillG]

Sorry to Bill for answering a question directed to Chris

No need to apologise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everyone, please read this in its entirety before and if you respond to it.

It is not a matter of sinless perfection, it is a matter of walk.

Suppose A man sees a really beautiful woman, and does the proverbial “second look”, a long one, and lusts after her in his heart. He has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The Holy Spirit convicts him. He knows he has sinned. He will either confess and renounce his lustful thoughts or he will continue to indulge, or may even pursue her.

It is not the same matter to look upon a woman with lust and then receive correction, and to do the same and yet. reject correction, and run headlong into the full consumation of the thought. This is the danger of saying “all sin is equal”. Falling into sin for a moment and continuous persistence in sin is not equal

Now a child of God may sin. He may lust. He may indulge in lustful thoughts. He may even act out his lustful thoughts. He may persist in this sin for a season. But he is going to come under severe chastening. He does not lose his salvation, he loses fellowship, he loses peace, he loses assurance, his spiritual life dries up, his bones get broken by the rod of correction, and generally it is a miserable condition

And if a person can live in persistent sin, in a state like this, and be at peace, untroubled, saying it’s ok, I’m saved, God forgives me, and not be grieved by his sin, be at peace with himself, and have no concern whatsoever, ( in other words, if the things listed in the former paragraph just before this one do not occur), that is a very dangerous place, and it is doubtful that person ever knew the Lord.

Now you and DC are being accused of promoting and teaching the possibility of the scenario just described in the last paragraph just before this one. I do not think you are promoting that at all. I think you are promoting that

1. A Christian is not sinless

2. The direction of a believers walk is toward God and away from sin.

3. A believer may lapse for a season from that walk.

4. But God restores that believer through chastisement and other means.

And lastly,

5. There are those who think they are believers, but deceive themselves.

Just one correction
I disagree with your assertion that all sin is not equal

when the person lusted in his heart. He broke gods law. Penalty death

if he resists God. He breaks gods law
penalty death

If he continues his sin and goes after her he broke gods law. Penalty death

If he goes all the way and completed the act. He breaks gods law. Penalty death

All sin has a penalty death what happens is how many guilty acts is committed. Not a lesser and greater sin
this is what legalists like Chris can not fathom

Take two men. One just had the lustful thought. He has one death penalty attached
the other went all the way. He has multiple death penalties attached
end result. Both pay the same penalty of death so as a result both are just as guilty.

Example
1 guy commits one murder. He is put to death
another guy commits 10 murder. He is put to death
in the end. Both suffered the same fate.

the penalty of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life

 

[Discern]

Just one correction
I disagree with your assertion that all sin is not equal

when the person lusted in his heart. He broke gods law. Penalty death

if he resists God. He breaks gods law
penalty death

If he continues his sin and goes after her he broke gods law. Penalty death

If he goes all the way and completed the act. He breaks gods law. Penalty death

All sin has a penalty death what happens is how many guilty acts is committed. Not a lesser and greater sin
this is what legalists like Chris can not fathom

Take two men. One just had the lustful thought. He has one death penalty attached
the other went all the way. He has multiple death penalties attached
end result. Both pay the same penalty of death so as a result both are just as guilty.

Example
1 guy commits one murder. He is put to death
another guy commits 10 murder. He is put to death
in the end. Both suffered the same fate.

the penalty of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life

The penalty is equal, I agree. But what I meant was that there is a sense in which a sin is birthed and another sense in which a sin reaches maturity. Better to kill the sin early than late.

Scenario 1. Epithumia causes me to sin in heart and mind. Lust conceives sin. Holy Spirit convicts, I am checked. I confess and yield to the Spirit

Scenario 2 -Holy Spirit convicts, but i actually act on the lust further by pursuing it, allowing sin to grow.

Same penalty of death, BUT FOR GRACE. But the latter Is much more an affront to grace, because you were checked by the Holy Spirit, and went ahead anyways.

So in one, I was overtaken in a temptation, but I was sensitive to the Spirit. In the other, I hardened myself and disregarded the Spirit. Much more harmful and a much greater affront to Gods Grace. I repent. I am forgiven. But I have brought shame and reproach.

 

[Discern]

Just one correction
I disagree with your assertion that all sin is not equal

when the person lusted in his heart. He broke gods law. Penalty death

if he resists God. He breaks gods law
penalty death

If he continues his sin and goes after her he broke gods law. Penalty death

If he goes all the way and completed the act. He breaks gods law. Penalty death

All sin has a penalty death what happens is how many guilty acts is committed. Not a lesser and greater sin
this is what legalists like Chris can not fathom

Take two men. One just had the lustful thought. He has one death penalty attached
the other went all the way. He has multiple death penalties attached
end result. Both pay the same penalty of death so as a result both are just as guilty.

Example
1 guy commits one murder. He is put to death
another guy commits 10 murder. He is put to death
in the end. Both suffered the same fate.

the penalty of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life

Here’s another.

I am angry at a brother, and I plot revenge my heart and mind filled with evil thoughts. I am put in check by the Spirit. I confess and forsake my evil thoughts

I am angry with my brother, and actually go through with my evil intentions, whether a hurtful word or something more serious, and afterwards ask God to forgive me.

Not the same thing at all. Both are sinful, both are worthy of death, and both are forgivable. But one is allowing the seed of sin to reach fruition

 

[EleventhHour]

Here’s another.

I am angry at a brother, and I plot revenge my heart and mind filled with evil thoughts. I am put in check by the Spirit. I confess and forsake my evil thoughts

I am angry with my brother, and beat him with a baseball bat and afterwards ask God to forgive me.

Not the same thing at all. Both are sinful, both are worthy of death, and both are forgivable. But one is allowing the seed of sin to reach fruition

But one is allowing the seed of sin to reach fruition

When "act out" the seed of sin has reached fruition.

 

[Discern]

When "act out" the seed of sin has reached fruition.

Exactly. So when I HARBOR evil thoughts, by definition, I have already sinned. But just because I went this far, I don’t need to go the whole way and bring it to fruition. Sometimes the devil uses the ploy, well you’ve taken it this far, you’ve already failed, and it kind of weakens you to further temptation. This he has used to success at times. But we don’t need to fall to that junk. We can stop at any time, but he doesn’t want us to

Suppose David had lusted after Bathsheba, but stopped there. Or even had committed adultery, but stopped short of murder. He would have still been guilty, but would have had a lot less pain in his life. He would have still been worthy of death, but would not have been a murderer

So I guess all sin is equal, but it tends to multiply and get worse. Not worse in penalty, but in harmfulness.

We as Christians are secure in Christ, but we must be sober and vigilant, not out of fear of losing salvation per se. it should be enough that sin was ugly enough to put Jesus on the cross. That should be motive enough to hate sin. If it isn’t, we need to pray and ask God to soften our hearts a LOT

I often ask God to soften my heart. I don’t want to get hardened, and that is due to the new nature that hungers for righteousness

 

[Discern]

When "act out" the seed of sin has reached fruition.

But you can be guilty of sin without actually acting it out. But then acting it out is a double whammy, and if when you were conceiving it in your heart, and the Spirit checked you, but then you did it anyway, this is grieving the Spirit, instead of carelessly stumbling and then receiving correction

For example, when David lusted after Bathsheba, he already sinned. But he didn’t have to carry it as far as he did. He could have gotten off the train at any point before it crashed

The good thing is he eventually got off, and that because he was a man after Gods own heart. If he hadn’t been, he could have rejected Nathan. But he didn’t reject Nathan (our Gods ) correction, because he, in spite of his many faults, was a sheep of the LORD. Psalm 23:1

And he received chastening as a child of God.

 

[VCO]

I just heard on FOX NEWS, that they have another Dooms Day Cult operating in Idaho. Two children are missing, and other people who are considered enemies of the Cult have died under suspicious circumstances. Authorizes are exhuming one body, and there may be more. Sounds like a Jim Jones want-a-be. I know things like this were prophesied for the end times, but I do not like it one bit.

 

[dcontroversal]

Interesting ...cults are about control....so makes sense they would make salvation an earned reward.

Even deeper truth....Satan is about slavery and the cults that peddle his corrupted false gospels promote being bound down and blinded by false religions.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

2 Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Your delusions are strong!

Amen......more than a handful on this site are delusional.........Cainologists, salvation losers, workers for and Pharisee-ism runs deep.....!!

 

[dcontroversal]

The penalty is equal, I agree. But what I meant was that there is a sense in which a sin is birthed and another sense in which a sin reaches maturity. Better to kill the sin early than late.

Scenario 1. Epithumia causes me to sin in heart and mind. Lust conceives sin. Holy Spirit convicts, I am checked. I confess and yield to the Spirit

Scenario 2 -Holy Spirit convicts, but i actually act on the lust further by pursuing it, allowing sin to grow.

Same penalty of death, BUT FOR GRACE. But the latter Is much more an affront to grace, because you were checked by the Holy Spirit, and went ahead anyways.

So in one, I was overtaken in a temptation, but I was sensitive to the Spirit. In the other, I hardened myself and disregarded the Spirit. Much more harmful and a much greater affront to Gods Grace. I repent. I am forgiven. But I have brought shame and reproach.

My view....sin is sin and to break the least of the commandments = guilty of the whole....but, God does qualifiy sin in this essence....it is broken down into laws, statutes and judgements.....with varying levels of punishment and degrees of punishment. And like I have said before...some sins are called an abomination and are especially disgusting in the eyes of God.