Not By Works

[Chris1975]

Notice how it's necessary for sinning people in the church to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so they may be saved when Jesus comes back. Instead we comfort them by saying once you are saved you are always saved........well, except if your doctrine doesn't line up with that. Then you aren't going to be saved when Jesus comes back because that means you are a works salvationist.

Yeah good point.

 

[Chris1975]

Notice how it's necessary for sinning people in the church to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so they may be saved when Jesus comes back. Instead we comfort them by saying once you are saved you are always saved........well, except if your doctrine doesn't line up with that. Then you aren't going to be saved when Jesus comes back because that means you are a works salvationist.

The objective was repentance (which this man did as can be seen in 2 Corinthians).

 

[mailmandan]

Notice how it's necessary for sinning people in the church to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so they may be saved when Jesus comes back. Instead we comfort them by saying once you are saved you are always saved........well, except if your doctrine doesn't line up with that. Then you aren't going to be saved when Jesus comes back because that means you are a works salvationist.

Discipline is necessary at times and God does chasten His children. (Hebrews 12:6) Always saved does not mean always perfect or without discipline, as some of God's children end up finding out the hard way.

 

[Chris1975]

The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (when do you believe that took place?) but only for a time after which they will be restored (when do you believe that will take place?)

Romans 11:25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)

But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)). So I don't see Romans 11:17 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

Let's ask a simple question then.......what is the criteria for being cut off (scripturally)? Please show the scriptures, for they are there.

 

[mailmandan]

Let's ask a simple question then.......what is the criteria for being cut off (scripturally)? Please show the scriptures, for they are there.

Unbelief, yet there is more going on in Romans 11 beyond your casual reading of it. Hebrews 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew .....

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..

 

[Chris1975]

The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (when do you believe that took place?) but only for a time after which they will be restored (when do you believe that will take place?)

Romans 11:25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)

But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)). So I don't see Romans 11:17 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

Secondly, not all Gentiles are in covenant with Christ. I see you did specify "professing Christians". Who are these professing Christians? Is it not normal for people to have said the "sinners prayer", asked forgiveness and called upon Christ? 99% of those Church members would have made this confession at some point. Are you saying that the Lord "delayed" granting them forgiveness, and not considered them believers until some future point, where they were to "believe more"? When does someone become a believer? Based on your doctrine, its not at the point of committing their lives to the Lord, its at some future point.
Or are you saying that they ARE grafted in at this point, but are NOT YET believers until some future point?

No mate...you are wrong on this.

They are grafted in when they call upon the Lord.
They are cut off when there is no fruit. For they did not GO ON WITH HIM.

 

[Chris1975]

Secondly, not all Gentiles are in covenant with Christ. I see you did specify "professing Christians". Who are these professing Christians? Is it not normal for people to have said the "sinners prayer", asked forgiveness and called upon Christ? 99% of those Church members would have made this confession at some point. Are you saying that the Lord "delayed" granting them forgiveness, and not considered them believers until some future point, where they were to "believe more"? When does someone become a believer? Based on your doctrine, its not at the point of committing their lives to the Lord, its at some future point.
Or are you saying that they ARE grafted in at this point, but are NOT YET believers until some future point?

No mate...you are wrong on this.

They are grafted in when they call upon the Lord.
They are cut off when there is no fruit. For they did not GO ON WITH HIM.

John 15
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

 

[Chris1975]

John 15
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

A satanist is not a branch in Christ. An atheist is not a branch in Christ. A hindu, muslim, new ager is not a branch in Christ. A branch in Christ are those who have confessed Jesus as Lord.

 

[Chris1975]

Luke 6v46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:

 

[Chris1975]

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

 

[mailmandan]

Secondly, not all Gentiles are in covenant with Christ. I see you did specify "professing Christians". Who are these professing Christians? Is it not normal for people to have said the "sinners prayer", asked forgiveness and called upon Christ? 99% of those Church members would have made this confession at some point. Are you saying that the Lord "delayed" granting them forgiveness, and not considered them believers until some future point, where they were to "believe more"? When does someone become a believer? Based on your doctrine, its not at the point of committing their lives to the Lord, its at some future point. Or are you saying that they ARE grafted in at this point, but are NOT YET believers until some future point?

No mate...you are wrong on this.

They are grafted in when they call upon the Lord.
They are cut off when there is no fruit. For they did not GO ON WITH HIM.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying and you are also not thoroughly reading Romans 11 in context.
Also, no fruit at all is the result of no faith.

 

[mailmandan]

A satanist is not a branch in Christ. An atheist is not a branch in Christ. A hindu, muslim, new ager is not a branch in Christ. A branch in Christ are those who have confessed Jesus as Lord.

In regards to John 15:1-6 (which is also used by the NOSAS camp to teach a loss of salvation) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now even continuing in belief is not required? The continuing part is in John 15, where one must abide in Christ or be cut off by the Father.

The same John who wrote they went out from us also wrote about abiding. Yes there are some who depart from the true believers that were never saved as John states, these were the gnostics who denied Jesus had come in the flesh. There are also many who were in the faith, and then departed from the living God, which is completely biblical, not only is the phrase departed from the living God biblical, so is the parable of the sower where some believe for a _while_ but then fall away due to circumstances. So they did indeed believe for a while, so this idea that they never had faith to begin with is just not biblically false, its also demonstrably false and we see people lose faith in many things daily.

You need to explain how some people could have received the Spirit, begun in the Spirit and ended up in the flesh, were severed from Christ and yet this means they are still saved but are just not enjoying the fuzzy feelings of grace. There are so many verses of people departing from the faith and I do not buy into the explanations I have heard so far, they are just too weak and effectively nullify the whole meaning of the passages. Which is exactly my biggest concern with this doctrine, you cannot go to someone and rebuke them, because what is going to happen if they do not repent? Nothing, God will "punish" (reward more like) them by taking them home early if it gets too far. There it is, absolutely nothing will happen. Only thing you can say is you are not sure if that person is even saved, and at which point its back to Calvinism of guessing which one is truly saved and which is not. Where is waldo? theology.


A brother in the Rapture thread pointed out in the beginning of it that he feels internet debates are pointless because people rarely if ever change their view.
I looked back on it and it has been 42 pages and not a single person has conceded on a single point they had. This has caused me to think perhaps the man is right, this is largely meaningless, as we have probably all heard the same arguments a thousand times. I will reply back if some new valid explanation is provided to how some people could have received the Spirit, begun in the Spirit and ended up in the flesh, were severed from Christ and yet this means they are still saved but are just not enjoying the fuzzy feelings of grace or are out of position with grace or whichever argument people have used here. If not I will just let it be, I said what I had to say and I got my mocking blocker on. What joke will stand up comedian mr.military come up with? Something clever and snappy, if only that would answer any of our questions.

EDIT 1: I also would like to say I do not believe there is anyone here who is against OSAS because they don't want it to be true. I am sure me you and everyone would love for OSAS to be true. Smooth sailing, that is what people like, including me.

read the passage

he who believes has all those things

if it is conditional, then no one has those things, Jesus lied

you people are your self righteousness and refusing to acknowledge the power of the cross simply amaze me

 

[Chris1975]

read the passage

he who believes has all those things

if it is conditional, then no one has those things, Jesus lied

you people are your self righteousness and refusing to acknowledge the power of the cross simply amaze me

it's actually the opposite of what you say. We are saying the power of the cross far exceeds what you are acknowledging. It has the power to change the person into a new creation, with victory over sin and the flesh.

The cross isn't just a forgiveness of sins. It's forgiveness + change.

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Timothy 4
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Ok, this has nothing to do with salvation of the soul in eternity of going to hell. It's about having a good testimony being a good minister.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[Chris1975]

Ok, this has nothing to do with salvation of the soul in eternity of going to hell. It's about having a good testimony being a good minister.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Oh please. Why lie to yourself.

 

[PS]

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:30‭-‬33 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.9.30-33.KJV

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:1‭-‬6 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.11.1-6.KJV

Rom 9:30-31 CEV What does all of this mean? It means that the Gentiles were not trying to be acceptable to God, but they found that he would accept them if they had faith. (31) It also means that the people of Israel were not acceptable to God. And why not? It was because they were trying to be acceptable by obeying the Law instead of by having faith in God. The people of Israel fell over the stone that makes people stumble,

Our salvation is dependent on following Jesus all the time. God rejected those who kept Old Testament law.

Rom 11:1-8 CEV
Am I saying that God has turned his back on his people? Certainly not! I am one of the people of Israel, and I myself am a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel? (3) He said, "Lord, they killed your prophets and destroyed your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me." (4) But the Lord told Elijah, "I still have seven thousand followers who have not worshiped Baal." (5) It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers. (6) This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness. (7) This means that only a chosen few of the people of Israel found what all of them were searching for. And the rest of them were stubborn, (8) just as the Scriptures say, "God made them so stupid that their eyes are blind, and their ears are still deaf."

The majority, turned away from God of their own free will and worshipped Baal. People can and do turn away from God. We MUST remain faithful.

In conclusion, follow Jesus till your dying day, and never look back.

Do you think that is bad advice? If not, then teach it. What you teach gives false assurance and can cause people to fall away. If I was God, I would hold you personally responsible.

 

[PS]

Chosen people does not mean they were all saved. Genuine believers are eternally secure (Psalm 37:28; John 10:27-28; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) but unbelievers are not. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Even though the Israelites believed in God, they backslid.

They were not eternally secure.​

 

[fredoheaven]

Oh please. Why lie to yourself.

Umm, well are you going to discuss scripture or what?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
King James Version (KJV)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As promised I know it is long. but it is a long passage.

John 6.. We have to read this in context. In the narrative, Jesus had just fed 5000, Now. the following day. They labor to come to find Jesus, However, we see from Jesus first words. they did not come because they wanted to see or listen to Jesus, they came to be fed again

John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

we see a few things.
1. The people did not come to Jesus because they wanted to hear what he had to say, they wanted fed (literal food)
2. Jesus tells them not to search for food which dies, but search for the food that gives eternal life.
3. Jesus is able to give them that food, Because God the father has given him the seal (the holy spirit remember back when John Baptized him and the holy spirit entered him)

Continuing...

vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

1. they asked Jesus what works they had to do to receive this eternal life (or the food that endures to eternal life)
2. Jesus gave the one answer - BELIEVE IN HIM WHO SENT ME. (this is the bread.)
3. In claiming it was the work of God. this proves that there are NO WORKS which one can do which will endure to eternal life. That our only lablor is seek for this food. We will find out later. It is God who does the work of showing who he is so we can make a decision.

continuing...

vs 30. 30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

amazing, they saw Jesus take 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and fed 5000, yet that was not sign enough? they wanted more proof? This shows the worlds thinking and the hardness of their hearts, that even though we may see a miracle, the miracle is not enough. The pharisees saw Jesus raise Lazarus, yet they still where hard hearted. The Jews saw all the miracles God performed through Moses. Yet they were heard hearted.

Jesus answer...

vs 32 - 33 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

1. Jesus said Moses did not do the work, God did it.
2. God is the one who sent manna, Just Like God is the one who sent Christ.
3. All the Israelite's had to do was eat the manna to stay alive,, be fed for the day.
4. all we have to do to live spiritually or have eternal life is eat the true bread sent from heaven, which is Christ