Not By Works

[VCO]

PRIMARY VERSES THAT SUPPORT OSAS FAITH!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

 

[Discern]

You changed the mood of the verb 'hold' from 'may happen/ may not happen' to 'definitely happened' so that the condition for the present result of partaking in Christ spoken of is always satisfied. You can't just decide the mood of the verb 'hold' is different from what it actually is to keep the presupposition of your doctrinal beliefs preserved.

All you have to do is see what the 'For' is there for in the verse to see why the writer used the 'may happen/ may not happen' mood of the verb 'hold'. He's saying you can't have the ongoing result of the completed action of partaking in Christ if you get hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and do not hold fast the confidence that secured it in the first place.

13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; - Hebrews 3:13-14

Conditional sentences sometimes have an uncertain protasis, but at the same time, the apodosis is true and certain if the protasis is true For example, take this statement...If you were born before 1960 (uncertain protasis) you are eligible for benefits. The apodosis (you are eligible for benefits) is true if the protasis (if you were born before 1960) is true.

 

[Discern]

Conditional sentences sometimes have an uncertain protasis, but at the same time, the apodosis is true and certain if the protasis is true For example, take this statement...If you were born before 1960 (uncertain protasis) you are eligible for benefits. The apodosis (you are eligible for benefits) is true if the protasis (if you were born before 1960) is true.

SO in Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14, the apodosis (we are made partakers and are Christ's house) is true and certain IF the protasis is true. (if we hold firm) But the apodosis is in the perfect tense in 3:14 and present in Hebrews 3:6. So the mood of the protasis is not an issue for me, but I believe that the tenses of the apodosis is an issue for you.

 

[CherieR]

PRIMARY VERSES THAT SUPPORT OSAS FAITH!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

A couple of my favorites are from Ephesians 2:4-6 and Romans 5:10.

It makes a lot of sense.

Ephesians 2:4-6( KJV ): "But God, who is rich in mercy, for this great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace are ye saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

What stands out to me is that part of being dead in sins and yet God raises us up with Christ. If you are dead in sins, you can't do anything to earn God's favor but it is a helpless state. That is the state in which God takes us out of. It is grace because God didn't turn away but was rather instead " rich in mercy".

Then Romans 5:10: " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

 

[PS]

PRIMARY VERSES THAT SUPPORT OSAS FAITH!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

The Jews are a prime example of a chosen people who were loved by God, but cast aside by Him.

They were not eternally secure. Let it be a warning to you.

 

[CherieR]

The Jews are a prime example of a chosen people who were loved by God, but cast aside by Him.

They were not eternally secure. Let it be a warning to you.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:30‭-‬33 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.9.30-33.KJV

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:1‭-‬6 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.11.1-6.KJV

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

>Those who stand in Faith, as described above, are to continue in God's goodness, otherwise they will be cut off.
>Bottom line is: There are those who are found in faith at some point, and some of these are cut off due to their disobedience which leads to unbelief.

The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (when do you believe that took place?) but only for a time after which they will be restored (when do you believe that will take place?)

Romans 11:25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)

But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)). So I don't see Romans 11:17 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

1 Timothy 4
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Believers are not passive in continuing in sound doctrine, but it's not merely in our own power that we continue. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through continuing in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out of the well, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope and allowing that person to pull you out of the well, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

 

[Judges1318]

SO in Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14, the apodosis (we are made partakers and are Christ's house) is true and certain IF the protasis is true. (if we hold firm) But the apodosis is in the perfect tense in 3:14 and present in Hebrews 3:6.

How does a Christian know they were made a partaker of Christ before fulfilling what once saved always saved says is the evidence that they were made a partaker of Christ? You don't have that evidence until you get to the end. See what a useless interpretation that is of Hebrews 3:6 & 14? With that in mind, you can see that the practical application of the passage is for the believer to hold fast the confidence they started out in to preserve having been made a partaker of Christ.

So the mood of the protasis is not an issue for me, but I believe that the tenses of the apodosis is an issue for you.

No, actually I think I may understand it better than you. Do you think the ongoing results of the Perfect tense and the sureness of the Indicative mood mean the action of having been made a partaker can't end?

The action of having had confidence in Christ is what set in motion the past and completed action of being made a partaker of Christ with it's continuing results. If the action of having confidence ceases so does the results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ. It's the only reasonable understanding of the passage. As I have shown, your understanding has no practical application as a warning to not be hardened to unbelief by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[mailmandan]

It does seem that many who believe in once saved always saved simply don't live holy lives--though they are usually very active in church activities, and seem to take a false comfort from that. They seem very comfortable with living in sin, even though with their mouth they claim they would not be comfortable with living in sin, and that God will definitely punish the person who does that, while they don't get punished for doing that.

I'm convinced that once saved always saved is not the narrow and holy road to salvation that they claim it is. It seems to be going in the opposite direction....the wide and easy direction.

So here you are basically condemning OSAS believers and accusing them of living unholy lives. That judgment call is well above your pay grade and your true colors are becoming more and more obvious.

I have heard your same argument above numerous times from unbelievers in false religions and cults who are quick to accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license to sin. The implication is that these OSAS believers will surely lose their salvation due to living in sin, yet on the other side of the coin, these unbelievers imply they will surely remain saved based on their "holier than thou" lifestyle (even they subscribe to works righteousness) which has always been a red flag for me. The false comfort of these people is in self righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before?

In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2?

 

[mailmandan]

We are made partakers (apodosis) if we hold fast (protasis)

Of course if some of the receivers of the letter were never made partakers, they would not hold fast. They would fall away from a profession of faith.

That is why the verb "hold fast" is subjunctive. If the protasis is not true, then it follows that the apodosis is not true. Very simple. If the protasis (if we hold fast) is not true, then the apodosis "we have been made partakers of Christ is not true.

In other words, if they/we do not hold fast, they/we were not made partakers (perfect tense, past completed action).

If we believe, we have eternal life. The verb believe is going to be subjunctive. We may or may not believe. If we believe is the protasis, we have eternal life is the apodosis. Same construction that you see in Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14. It is so simple, I can't imagine why some don't get it.

Some don't get it because they stubbornly refuse to see it. Such people seem determined to promote their biased agenda at all costs and seem to feed on sowing seeds of doubt and deception.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. This is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Plain and simple. Those faltering Hebrews who ultimately depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty demonstrate that they have not become partakers of Christ/are not of His house.

Just as in Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[mailmandan]

The Jews are a prime example of a chosen people who were loved by God, but cast aside by Him.

They were not eternally secure. Let it be a warning to you.

Chosen people does not mean they were all saved. Genuine believers are eternally secure (Psalm 37:28; John 10:27-28; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) but unbelievers are not. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Judges1318]

So here you are basically condemning OSAS believers and accusing them of living unholy lives. That judgment call is well above your pay grade and your true colors are becoming more and more obvious.

Why am I not allowed to use my God given right to examine fruit?

I have heard your same argument above numerous times from unbelievers in false religions and cults who are quick to accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license to sin. The implication is that these OSAS believers will surely lose their salvation due to living in sin

No one can live in sin and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. That is what the Bible says.

The evidence of salvation given in the Bible is that you are a changed person. Not perfect, but changed and changing. The new mindset of righteousness is what shows that you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you. A person who believes in once saved always saved can have that evidence. But too often you see that doctrine used to rationalize and justify having an unchanged life.

yet on the other side of the coin, these unbelievers imply they will surely remain saved based on their "holier than thou" lifestyle (even they subscribe to works righteousness) which has always been a red flag for me. The false comfort of these people is in self righteousness.

And yet I'm not allowed to make judgment calls?

My experience has shown me that any time you get the 'holier than thou' argument you're probably dealing with an unbeliever. You seem like a stand up guy, but you're sounding more and more like an unbeliever. The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is it will deceive a person into staying in their old lives and not being prepared to meet Jesus when He returns. The unchanged life is a warning sign. People should not ignore it and think they are saved because they believe once saved always saved is true. Works salvationists trust in their works to earn salvation. Once saved always saved salvationists often trust that their works don't matter. Both have a rude wake up call awaiting them when Christ returns.

Real believing that justifies has works attached. You can call that 'holier than thou' if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that if you don't have the works that accompany salvation you may well not be saved. That's why we should not give false comfort to people in the church by telling them that once you are saved you are always saved no matter what, just as the works salvationist should not give false comfort that your works earn you salvation. Come to the middle between these two erroneous doctrines where the truth about this matter is found. You can tell that's where the truth is because not many people have found it.

 

[Judges1318]

Chosen people does not mean they were all saved. Genuine believers are eternally secure (Psalm 37:28; John 10:27-28; Ephesians 1:13-14 etc..) but unbelievers are not. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

That's why we should keep believing.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!
New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit: yes! Vital, for "the soul who sins is the one who will die." It's always been this way. Back when I was a "good Christian" in my pew, without a vital relationship with Jesus Christ, I knew I was going to heaven. As with many of you, there was no question.

But then, one day, the Lord (which is something I didn't know Him as) sovereignly gave me a passionate thirst for His Word. Since 1996, I have studied it, listened to it throughout the day, and spoken it out loud. By 1999, still without the baptisms, I had seen clearly, from cover to cover that we can't go on sinning and that my Christian religion was a sham. And everything I did certainly wasn't done to His glory or in His name. The revelation was so obvious, I was suicidal, and I had it planned out.

But God transformed my life. The specific sin that was compulsive for me had become demonic - I had no control over my actions. I was addicted and every addiction grows out of a frustration. But I was delivered, praise the Lord. Once I was free, the 3 elders didn't ask me if I needed a tissue, they asked if I needed a towel! My life was transformed. Now, no longer compelled, the Lord ministered to me what was written, just accepting things like Romans 6 just the way it is written. The word translated in our Bibles "forgiveness" is the Greek word "aphesis". It actually means freedom. And when you understand Jesus' view on sin, He came to set us free from its control not to simply forgive us. The word "forgive" occurs over and over again in the book of Leviticus. We were slaves. We had to keep coming back to Him for forgiveness. Now, however, we have the Way of holiness Isaiah (35) spoke of; the Way in which Jesus walked.

So, I was baptized in water (again) and I got way more than wet this time. I was powerfully changed just for taking God at His Word and not limiting Him by my tiny mind or by "the herd." I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, and among other things, I can clearly hear His voice, just like you see happen in the Bible! And then I got the wilderness experience, growing up, going on to maturity in a life lived by, through and in the Holy Spirit. Learning to live humbly and not from "under the sun." He humbled me, causing me to hunger then feeding me with manna, which neither I nor my fathers had know, to teach me that man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Jesus said that He is the real manna that the father sent. Like Paul was worried about in 2 Cor.11:3,4, there is a different Jesus, gospel and spirit. I had previously come up in them. In my previous religious life, Jesus didn't require me to deny my soul. I lived based on what I thought, wanted and felt; what Isaiah called "light fires and provide for yourselves flaming torches.." in chapter 50:10,11. The 2 ways are repeated endlessly and in countless different manners of saying it throughout the Bible: the way of the soul vs. the Way of the Spirit. All of us today are either "soulish" (northern European languages have a word for that: it gets translated in our Bibles as "natural") or spiritual. One of the 2 is how we live. And it is intensely down to earth and practical. In fact, it's why my temple is healthy. Jesus bought it. I submit to Jesus. He leads me. And being in His Word all the time, it is health to all my flesh. He bore our diseases and sicknesses on the cross. And the preaching of this Gospel of the Kingdom was always accompanied by healing. To have to type that in the past tense is tragic beyond measure.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. I adore Ezekiel 18. I teach it as "the great aphesis chapter of the Bible." Appearing to His disciples after His resurrection, Jesus took the disciples throughout all of the Old Testament showing Himself to them, and we see the Gospel here as well. Getting "a new heart and a new spirit" is New Covenant. The chapter shows a life turned around and God promises to remember none of the offenses such a one committed previously. The Bible is supernatural. The New Covenant is supernatural. Our bodies are living sacrifices today and our minds get renewed, so that we are able to test and approve what God's wil is - His good, pleasing and perfect will. Today if you will hear His voice, don't harden your hearts as they did in the wilderness.

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. This is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Plain and simple. Those faltering Hebrews who ultimately depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty demonstrate that they have not become partakers of Christ/are not of His house.

And so, according to this interpretation, you can not have the evidence that you are saved until you hold fast firm until the end. Not a very secure and reassuring doctrine of salvation. That's an even bigger reason to be fearful than the 'you can lose your salvation' gospel because you can never know if the believing you have today is for real or not. But I suppose there is a caveat somewhere within once saved always saved doctrine that makes it so you can know you are saved even though you do not have this evidence of salvation. Which essentially makes the passage meaningless.

The passage only makes sense in the doctrine I'm defending. It says you remain a partaker of Christ as long as you do not cast away the confidence you started out in. I know you're probably hearing that as 'you remain a partaker of Christ as long as you WORK works of righteousness to earn that partaking of Christ', but that is not what I said. What I'm defending is neither the works gospel nor the 'you can't lose your salvation' gospel. It's the gospel that few find, tucked away between the extremes of the two.

 

[Chris1975]

A couple of my favorites are from Ephesians 2:4-6 and Romans 5:10.

It makes a lot of sense.

Ephesians 2:4-6( KJV ): "But God, who is rich in mercy, for this great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace are ye saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

What stands out to me is that part of being dead in sins and yet God raises us up with Christ. If you are dead in sins, you can't do anything to earn God's favor but it is a helpless state. That is the state in which God takes us out of. It is grace because God didn't turn away but was rather instead " rich in mercy".

Then Romans 5:10: " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Two parts. Romans 5 above identifies the two parts, and Romans 6 expounds on it. Death and Life. OSASSERS take the death part and see no further part in the Life part.

Romans 6
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as [d]instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Judges1318]

In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before?

In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2?

Notice how it's necessary for sinning people in the church to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so they may be saved when Jesus comes back. Instead we comfort them by saying once you are saved you are always saved........well, except if your doctrine doesn't line up with that. Then you aren't going to be saved when Jesus comes back because that means you are a works salvationist.

 

[mailmandan]

Why am I not allowed to use my God given right to examine fruit?

Accusing many people who believe in once saved always saved of not living holy lives and being comfortable with living in sin is not your judgment call to make. Don't be fooled by people who merely "on the surface" appear to be living holy lives. There are some good actors out there, yet only God infallibly knows the hearts of people.

No one can live in sin and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. That is what the Bible says.

I know what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 and Galatians 5:19-21. I also know what it says in 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The evidence of salvation given in the Bible is that you are a changed person. Not perfect, but changed and changing. The new mindset of righteousness is what shows that you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you. A person who believes in once saved always saved can have that evidence.

Amen!

But too often you see that doctrine used to rationalize and justify having an unchanged life.

I don't see that too often.

And yet I'm not allowed to make judgment calls?

Your judgment calls sound very biased.

My experience has shown me that any time you get the 'holier than thou' argument you're probably dealing with an unbeliever.

It's unbelievers who generally believe they are "holier than thou."

You seem like a stand up guy, but you're sounding more and more like an unbeliever.

How do I sound like an unbeliever? I believe that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I believe if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) I believe that no one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Does that sound like an unbeliever to you? So because I don't live in fear and bondage to IN-security about my salvation I sound like an unbeliever?

The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is it will deceive a person into staying in their old lives and not being prepared to meet Jesus when He returns. The unchanged life is a warning sign. People should not ignore it and think they are saved because they believe once saved always saved is true. Works salvationists trust in their works to earn salvation. Once saved always saved salvationists often trust that their works don't matter. Both have a rude wake up call awaiting them when Christ returns.

I've met plenty of NOSAS folks who trust in their works to maintain their salvation. The people who will have a rude wake up call awaiting them when Christ returns will be those who have refused to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Believers range from babes in Christ to those who are mature in Christ. Anyone who claims they are saved, yet they continues to run around living like the devil is obviously deceived.

Real believing that justifies has works attached.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ's finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

You can call that 'holier than thou' if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that if you don't have the works that accompany salvation you may well not be saved.

I don't call genuine faith that is evidenced by works holier than thou. I call people who believe they will be saved based on the merits of their performance/works holier than thou.

That's why we should not give false comfort to people in the church by telling them that once you are saved you are always saved no matter what, just as the works salvationist should not give false comfort that your works earn you salvation. Come to the middle between these two erroneous doctrines where the truth about this matter is found. You can tell that's where the truth is because not many people have found it.

No matter what? If someone is running around continuously living like the devil, yet claiming they are saved and will always be saved, such a person is deceived. Once we are saved we will always be saved IF we were truly saved to begin with. There are plenty of false conversions in "professing" Christendom and there is no comfort in that.