Not By Works
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I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the specific words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is "IF." The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away, with the point being that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).They were saved. just sayin....
In regards to the never saved view, once enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus as the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject this light.
In reference to partakers of the Holy Spirit, this describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. An individual may become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit, in regards to His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead unbelievers to Christ. Yet notice that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indweled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (guarantee) of future inheritance."
I already explained tasted the good word of God in my previous post.
In regards to "fall away," I find it interesting that this term was used by Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16) The wicked fall away permanently but were never saved. (1 John 2:19)
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor, we see that those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. In other metaphors in scripture, we see that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of fruit is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35). Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.
It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Judas loved money and power. When he realized his money would be cut off and he would never gain the power he wanted, He turned Christ in for more money.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the specific words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is "IF." The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away, with the point being that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).
In regards to the never saved view, once enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus as the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject this light.
In reference to partakers of the Holy Spirit, this describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. An individual may become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit, in regards to His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead unbelievers to Christ. Yet notice that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indweled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (guarantee) of future inheritance."
I already explained tasted the good word of God in my previous post.
In regards to "fall away," I find it interesting that this term was used by Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16) The wicked fall away permanently but were never saved. (1 John 2:19)
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor, we see that those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. In other metaphors in scripture, we see that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of fruit is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35). Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.
It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me.
Not hypothetical I do not see that at all, they were saved and they did not loose their salvation.
Okay I am making my case now....thinking.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
These are the verses correct?
Hebrews 6:4-8
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, having fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.”
U
UnderGrace
Guest
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the specific words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is "IF." The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away, with the point being that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).
In regards to the never saved view, once enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus as the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject this light.
In reference to partakers of the Holy Spirit, this describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. An individual may become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit, in regards to His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead unbelievers to Christ. Yet notice that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indweled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (guarantee) of future inheritance."
I already explained tasted the good word of God in my previous post.
In regards to "fall away," I find it interesting that this term was used by Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16) The wicked fall away permanently but were never saved. (1 John 2:19)
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor, we see that those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. In other metaphors in scripture, we see that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of fruit is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35). Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.
It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me.
Well you mind is made up, I have no problem stating MacArthur is wrong and this refers to saved people and actually reinforces our eternal security.
Once one abandons the whole lordship salvation doctrine and ideas of spurious faith the scripture makes a lot more sense.....imho having been there and done that.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes
IF THEY FALL AWAY,
The law states salvation can be lost. And must be renewed based on the day of atonement or animal sacrifice. Or the person had to be perfect free from ALL sin, (impossible)
This is the argument, If (it were possible) for someone to fall away, they could never be renewed.
Why? The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin. So why would you apostatize and go back to law where there is no hope.
Since Jesus will never die again, if there is a sin that can cause a person to fall away, there is no hope of repentance. .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
What is impossible is renewing them to repentance.
It is impossible “if they fall away” to renew them
Why can they never be renewed is the question
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Agree, so if they were never saved why then can they not ever saved?
How does this make sense?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Because they went to what they truly had faith in, the law.
If you taste something and do not like it, and you go back to what your true faith is in, Your never gonne try to taste the other thing again.
You were not saved when you tried it out. (You tasted it, you did not eat it.
And you will never try it again, thus you will never be saved.
I guess you have to look at it from context.
I can see what your saying also. But that would be from a different context. He is not warning people to not think you can lose your salvation, he is warning people about going back to law (it is prety much what the whole book of hebrews is about)
That may be the case.
It's one of thoughts out there, along with him being a Zealot who was expecting the Messahia to over throw Rome and restore power to Israel.
When he realised that may not be the case he tried to force the issue.
But I say that Judas experienced everything that the Hebrews passage talks about.
He saw the word of God in the flesh, listened to his teachings and claims, saw the miracles.
Yet he rejected Jesus.
None of the others did.
Judas fooled the disciples but not Jesus.
Jesus knew his condition from the start.
He also knew that Peter would deny him but that he would not reject him.
To me that is the apostasy, the falling away that was being addressed to the Hebrews, the Jews.
Rejecting Jesus and his sacrifice.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Exactly the warning is to those that are saved.
Who is being admonished to hold on to their profession? Is it false believers?
That would not make sense
Why would true believers be admonished to hold on to their profession if they couldn't cast it away? The writer of Hebrews is addressing believers whose loss of confidence.
The writer says that these people were "once enlightened." The Greek word used here is photizo, it means: "to enlighten, illuminate, to give light, to make see." The writer's other use of this verb in 10:32 seems clearly to point to the early days of their conversion experience:
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I dare not Mr. Bill, I dare not
.... there are many versionsOkay I will say one thing, in nutshell that if someone falls away it means they were never true believers because they only made Jesus Saviour but also need to make Him Lord.
There are two requirements for salvation Saviour and Lord.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
There is no need to warn people who are saved, they would never return to what their true faith lies in. A person who has true faith in Christ woudl never even consider going back to the schoolmaster.
Many people have the truth enlightened to them, yet STILL fail to chose to receive that.
A child of God can not be lost. So it can not be talking to true believers. A child of God is his child. The child may rin away, may even go to the other side of the world. He is still his fathers son.
Many people have professed faith, yet never had true faith. Just because you profess faith does not mean you actually have it. We see this in here.. people who profess to have faith, Yet all you hear out of the is works.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
This expression seems to be the reason that people think they were not believers ... again that makes no sense in context.
To be continued... need to go change the oil in my car. LOL
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
What worse?
People being alowed to think they are believers when they are not.
Or those who are, questioning their salvation?
Nice things is, There are so many passages in the bible that refutes the second question, this one passage is not going to hurt them.
But if a person thinks they are saved when they are not. They are in DANGER, and need to be shown the truth.
Can anyone expand on why the word did fall away in Hebrews is "parapipto" which is suggested as being figurative of apostasy.
Yet the word for apostasy is "Apostasia"
Found in
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition (NKJV)
Note falling away
Yet is ESV/NLT it's "Rebellion"
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
And in Acts it's "foresake"
Acts 21:21
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
In the NKJV/ESV.
Yet the word for apostasy is "Apostasia"
Found in
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition (NKJV)
Note falling away
Yet is ESV/NLT it's "Rebellion"
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
And in Acts it's "foresake"
Acts 21:21
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
In the NKJV/ESV.
I dare not Mr. Bill, I dare not
Okay I will say one thing, in nutshell that if someone falls away it means they were never true believers because they only made Jesus Saviour but also need to make Him Lord.
There are two requirements for salvation Saviour and Lord.
Ok being dumb here.
Can one make Jesus saviour yet not make him Lord?
If so is not something missing here?
Aka discipleship?