Not By Works

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Noose said:
Of course it doesn't, it describes those that believed for a while and fell away meaning that they lost faith after initially believing. Also thoroughly disproves eternal security thing.
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It doesn’t say they believed; it s
Noose said:
So what did they believe for a season?
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I’m not playing games with you. Answer my question then I will answer yours.
 
FollowHisSteps said:
Another interpretation is not their faith that is a problem it is how far they let love
grow in their heart and change them. A hard heart takes the words and then rejects
them, wanting to stay the same and not be broken up, like a hard path or rocky ground.

So we learn to interpret differently, because what matters is the change not how we
describe it. And you could say those with working faith will always let it change their
hearts and transform them with streams of living water. God bless you
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I notice you like to put words in other people’s mouths. That won’t work with me because I will call you out on it every time as of here and now.
 
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FollowHisSteps said:
I hope you can forgive me, but I can see another view here.
Believers are close to God, taken into the special place, while the world is lost is trying to be good
and justifying themselves.

In this world identification with God is seen as just accepting Jesus and His gift.

So different world views lead to different meanings of being close.
This is why sometimes these aspects are addressing different experiences and understanding.
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You don’t need my forgiveness. Secondly, identifying with God through Jesus Christ and his irrevocable gift of salvation is the only thing that matters.
 
Smooth said:
You don’t need my forgiveness. Secondly, identifying with God through Jesus Christ and his irrevocable gift of salvation is the only thing that matters.
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Irrevocable gift.....?...please explain your inferred meaning?
 
Chester said:
"Listening" in on this conversation confirms what I have seen before:

When one adopts the doctrine of OSAS, if forces one to become a judge of all who do not believe today - and say that they never did believe or could have believed.


What I mean practically is this: Suppose I see someone who at one point claimed to be a Christian and was even living what appeared as a good Christian life - but now they have fallen away and no longer even claim to believe and are now doing evil works.

If I believe in OSAS - I am forced to conclude this person could never have been a true believer

If I do not believe in OSAS - I simply leave the person's former spiritual condition to God - what matters is that they are not believing today and I care about that and wan to help them find repentance, change, and God's grace.

And this is not just a "straw-man" - I have a brother-in-law of whom this is the case . . . - exact scenario above . . . ! For myself, I refuse to judge his former position and say he could not have been born again.
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Yes, That is a really good observation. I am 2 pages down so don't know if there has been any response, but that "once saved always saved" gives True Christians a bad name. The world in general, those who have never know the Word, and are asking about what it is to be a Christian, see someone doing all the evils of the wicked, at the same time telling them "Yep, this is what being a Christian is all about".

I really think you hit the nail on the head. It gives God a bad name. The world doesn't know if the person was really saved or not, they just see the evil of one who can say it. And if it were the truth how would we be able to tell the Christian from the Kenite. That is awesome.
 
DeighAnn said:
Yes, That is a really good observation. I am 2 pages down so don't know if there has been any response, but that "once saved always saved" gives True Christians a bad name. The world in general, those who have never know the Word, and are asking about what it is to be a Christian, see someone doing all the evils of the wicked, at the same time telling them "Yep, this is what being a Christian is all about".

I really think you hit the nail on the head. It gives God a bad name. The world doesn't know if the person was really saved or not, they just see the evil of one who can say it. And if it were the truth how would we be able to tell the Christian from the Kenite. That is awesome.
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My point was not so much that OSAS supports people going out and sinning - very few (if any) OSAS believers here would say that.

My point was that belief in OSAS forces one to judge and say that one who is openly and rebelliously sinning could not have ever have been born again.
 
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Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones put it this way:


We must always be careful to define sanctification not only in terms of our moral state and condition, but of our moral state and condition in relationship to God. That is absolutely vital. People can be highly moral but that does not mean that they are sanctified. The word must always carry with it this conception of our relationship to God, our standing in His presence. So sanctification is not morality and purity in and of itself. It is all that in relationship to God. There is, therefore, an essential difference between the best moral person that the world may put forward and the Christian who is being sanctified.[1]


Sanctification is inseparably connected to, and originates in, the believer's saving relationship to God the Father by faith, through the atoning work of Jesus Christ, by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Morality that is not the product of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the "filthy rags" righteousness
 
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Chester said:
My point was not so much that OSAS supports people going out and sinning - very few (if any) OSAS believers here would say that.

My point was that belief in OSAS forces one to judge and say that one who is openly and rebelliously sinning could not have ever have been born again.
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Yes, another great observation, it forces us to judge which is Gods job. You are finally putting into words my feelings. Thank you
 
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Smooth said:
I notice you like to put words in other people’s mouths. That won’t work with me because I will call you out on it every time as of here and now.
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I notice you do not seem to be able to see example others put forward which are valid
perspectives. That won't work with me because I will call you out on it every time.

What you fail to grasp, putting forward different perspectives is just that.
You seem to want to deny value in discussion and debate about such things.
Is it because it makes you feel vulnerable and awkward?

I have no problem with you suggestions, I will just answer them as applicable.
God bless you :)
 
Smooth said:
You don’t need my forgiveness. Secondly, identifying with God through Jesus Christ and his irrevocable gift of salvation is the only thing that matters.
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So are you saying then that works do not matter - only salvation and "identifying" with God matter? I am just trying to understand what you mean here?
 
dcontroversal said:
HAHAHAHH he would not receive what you have to say anyway.....a salvation loser and maintainer will never embrace the facts that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.......
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Are you a salvation winner? Just wondering as you seem to talk about salvation losers a
lot.
 
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Smooth said:
You don’t need my forgiveness. Secondly, identifying with God through Jesus Christ and his irrevocable gift of salvation is the only thing that matters.
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So Jesus's offer cannot be turned down, I will be arrested and forced into heaven whether I like it
or not. It this your idea? The angel police will round up these recalcitrant believers and force
them through the pearly gates.

Odd that Jesus throws out those who are not ready and appropriately dressed and responding.
I think maybe your paradise is not the same heaven Jesus is talking about, where the angels
force people to go.
 
Smooth said:
Don’t look to me to explain anything. Read the Bible cover to cover.
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Funny this, making statements and then explaining what you mean.
Does this mean you actually do not know what they mean or are just too scared to put forward the
points?

Saying something is irrevocable is very strong.
Jesus salvation is written in the lambs book of life, and if you are there you are heaven bound,
if not to the lake of fire you go. Now that sounds irrevocable.

Problem is God blots people out, so until the day comes, things are not certain.
 
Chester said:
My point was not so much that OSAS supports people going out and sinning - very few (if any) OSAS believers here would say that.

My point was that belief in OSAS forces one to judge and say that one who is openly and rebelliously sinning could not have ever have been born again.
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First, I commend you for the underlined which is an honest evaluation......and then you blew it with the second statement.....My view is as follows and this is the only thing I have ever seen posted and is factual...

a. A child of GOD (one actually saved) will not and cannot live a lifestyle of continual sin <---JOHN states as much

b. Saved children of God do fail and fall into very grievous sins (David is one such example)

c. GOD chastens every SON whom he receives....SOMETIMES those found in "b" above have the fire whipped out of them, can forfeit rewards, suffer diseases and or the loss of children (as evidenced by DAVID) and in extreme cases forfeit physical life.
 
FollowHisSteps said:
I notice you do not seem to be able to see example others put forward which are valid
perspectives. That won't work with me because I will call you out on it every time.

What you fail to grasp, putting forward different perspectives is just that.
You seem to want to deny value in discussion and debate about such things.
Is it because it makes you feel vulnerable and awkward?

I have no problem with you suggestions, I will just answer them as applicable.
God bless you :)
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Different perspectives are fine; biblically incorrect perspectives are not fine whatsoever. You’re welcome.
 
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Is this the theological gnostic A team on duty now.
dc - drivel, psycho babble, opinion
eg - do not answer, get angry
smooth - read the bible

Deflection and avoidance. I suppose if scripture says working faith is true faith you cannot
really argue with it, or we are called to do good and not evil, or Jesus has set us free to be
blameless and pure on the day of His return.

Gods irrevocable call to Israel, except they were rejected so we could be grafted in.
Paul says some will return, before the end, because God will honour the call, but individually
this is not rosy salvation, rather as Korah discovered, swallowed by the ground and never
entering Gods rest and being removed from the book of life. More like curtains guys.
 
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