Not By Works

[BillG]

Paul told a lot about works. Some people see just what they want to see.

Paul also said

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Eli12]

No different from those who say works save us and accuse others who disagree with that and then accuse them of using it as an excuse to sin.

Just like you do.

Can't believe I fell for that.

I didn't say that works can save us. What I say is that without works nobody can be saved: not by works but not without works.
Even when people talk the same language they can missunderstand each other. Maybe that is what is happening here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If I'm recalling rightly, the point about "Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist, Paul, or any of them" was made with regard to their manner when speaking to those who opposed [Truth]… and some suggesting that it only was ever done in [their version of what they think is] "Love"... How would they view the following passage (set in the context of his pastoral epistles)?


Titus 1:9-14 -

9 holding to the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to convict those contradicting it.

Correcting False Teachers

10 For there are also many insubordinate, empty talkers, and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whom it is necessary to silence [kjv - 'whose mouths must be stopped'], who overthrow whole households, teaching things that they ought not for the sake of base gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true, for which cause rebuke them severely, so that they may be sound in the faith [i.e. 'that body of truth'], 14 not giving heed to Jewish myths and the commandments of men turning away from the truth.


… I know that some do not consider Paul's writings to be "Scripture," and others even view him as the snake. lol

 

[BillG]

I didn't say that works can save us. What I say is that without works nobody can be saved: not by works but not without works.
Even when people talk the same language they can misunderstood each other. Maybe that is what is happening here.

Your English seems to have got much better.

You taken a crash course in the last 10 minutes?

Bye bye

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Amen
We love because he loved us first. Which happens AT SALVATION.
Ole peter is just proving once again he does not understand the word of God (red x)

28 Isaac, who had a taste for wild game, loved Esau, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
Gen 25

3 His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob, and he loved the girl and spoke tenderly to her.
Gen 34

5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.
Job 1

Here are some simple examples of people not born again yet showing love in scripture.
This is as common an experience in every family, village, town, city, in every society or
group on earth.

Only if one is totally dysfunctional and shut down does love not register properly or is shut
out through trauma in childhood.

Doctors found with children in hospital, just one week separated from their mothers was
enough to cause serious harm to them and their bond with their parents, stunting their
development and changing their whole lives.

This is why I have to respond to this absurd idea only through Jesus do people know love.
Only through Jesus do we know the depths of Gods love that transcends our love like day
follows night, Gods love is the daylight while ours is just a beginning of what might be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul told a lot about works. Some people see just what they want to see.

The issue is not works

The issue is why are you doing them?

A. To maintain salvation

B. Because you are saved out of gratitude and trust of God?

Far to many people in here preach works, but for reason A. They reject reason B. And get mad at those who accept reason B, and claim they hate works.

 

[OneOfHis]

When people insists so much on not-works necessary, that is totally wrong. I am not saying it is your case, but there is too much of that all around, like some people doesn't mind what they do ... It is important to know that YES, it matters what people does.

What's wrong is when people who love God and know Him try to point to His merciful love and Jesus for assurance, then others come in and belittle the promises and grace of God, try to make Jesus a prerequisite and then point to self for assurance of salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't say that works can save us. What I say is that without works nobody can be saved: not by works but not without works.
Even when people talk the same language they can missunderstand each other. Maybe that is what is happening here.

You can not say you do not preach works, then say works are required.

They are directly apposed thoughts.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You can not say you do not preach works, then say works are required.
They are directly apposed thoughts.

Here is a polarised view with only two outcomes.
Faith with works is very different from faith that is passive.

If one separates faith, into passive faith and works, then the language changes and polarisation can exist.
But this is the trick of language and creating a straw man.

Belief without application is worthless, because it has no point or reason for existence.
We believe things because they help with living, with actions, with things we have to do and problems
we have to solve.

So one simple brainwashing trick is to give two options, which are both distortions and miss out the
real solution.

James shows faith alone and works alone in Jesus have no role, only faith with works is true saving
faith that God desires.

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2

 

[Eli12]

You can not say you do not preach works, then say works are required.

They are directly apposed thoughts.

I don't think so. The Scriptures are full of principles that every one must work out on. If works are not necessary why the Bible talk about doing so many things and not doing so many others?

PD: My first language is Spanish. I'd been living in US for more than 10 years. I can understand or not sometimes ... I can be clear sometimes and sometimes not to find the right words ...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think so. The Scriptures are full of principles that every one must work out on. If works are not necessary why the Bible talk about doing so many things and not doing so many others?

PD: My first language is Spanish. I'd been living in US for more than 10 years. I can understand or not sometimes ... I can be clear sometimes and sometimes not to find the right words ...

If works are necessary

We are saved by works, we are not saved by grace.

If works are necessary, then the cross is meaningless. Because God just could have had us work and earn our salvation.

The bible talks about works so much, because we are created ANEW for good works. We have to be shown what those works are.. Just like a student is shown things that they must do if they want certain things, or if they want to reach a goal.

You do not just say have faiht in me, then leave the baby stranded with no help. How would the baby grow?

 

[Eli12]

I am talking about the Scriptures in its totallity, not just in a part of the whole. We must check all the Scriptures to get the whole picture, not just a side.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am talking about the Scriptures in its totallity, not just in a part of the whole. We must check all the Scriptures to get the whole picture, not just a side.

I agree

But scripture must also not contradict

You can not have two contradicting scriptures otherwise scripture is no beter than any human book and becomes untrustworthy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work

Ie, it can not be grace plus works it has to be one or the other. And no other scripture can say otherwise, otherwise, it contradicts itself.

 

[Eli12]

There is not contradiction on saying that we are not saved because of what we do, and at the same time saying that we need to work out our salvation.

It is like this: there is a person who has a weakness about the sex. That person can fall on his weakness and try to keep fighting against its weakness (again and again and again) because he knows that he can do it because of Jesus' blood, so he start again to fight ... eventually he can get stronger on his fight and does not fall any more. Those are the works. The falling is not condemning him, but his efforts are helping him to achieve the real status of someone who pursues santity.

 

[OneOfHis]

There is not contradiction on saying that we are not saved because of what we do, and at the same time saying that we need to work out our salvation.

It is like this: there is a person who has a weakness about the sex. That person can fall on his weakness and try to keep fighting against its weakness (again and again and again) because he knows that he can do it because of Jesus' blood, so he start again to fight ... eventually he can get stronger on his fiht and not falling any more. Those are the works. The falling is not condemning him, but his efforts are helping him to achieve the real status of someone who pursue santity.

Working out salvation is different than working for salvation...


We do work out of love after we are saved.

But our works when saved do not add to or take away from the free gift of Gods grace in regards to salvation.

 

[Eli12]

That is not how I see it. If the same person I talked before doesn't fight and surrenders himself to his weakness, he won't be saved, cause no one can be practicing sin and be saved.

 

[Smooth]

I was thinking too that a bartender usually hears the problems that people are driven to other “spirits”. Could be a ministry.

I do indeed minister to folks while bartending. I have to respect patrons who don’t believe because I don’t want to harm the actual business of the bar itself, but I’ve had many wonderful conversations with believers as well as non-believers.

On a sidenote, there is one patron who comes in every once in a while who’s license plate reads IAMGOD. He’s a demonic punk, and though noone is beyond reaching, I admit I don’t have the desire to witness to him.

 

[OneOfHis]

That is not how I see it. If the same person I talked before doesn't fight and surrenders himself to his weakness, he won't be saved, cause no one can be practicing sin and be saved.

Then you don't trust Jesus did enough to save you on the cross, you believe you need to help him?


If you don't fight you won't get into heaven?


That's not what Jesus taught.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is not contradiction on saying that we are not saved because of what we do, and at the same time saying that we need to work out our salvation.

It is like this: there is a person who has a weakness about the sex. That person can fall on his weakness and try to keep fighting against its weakness (again and again and again) because he knows that he can do it because of Jesus' blood, so he start again to fight ... eventually he can get stronger on his fight and does not fall any more. Those are the works. The falling is not condemning him, but his efforts are helping him to achieve the real status of someone who pursues santity.

Yes actually there is a contradiction.

Its like saying I am giving you this as a gift, you do not have to work for it. But then if you do not work. I take the gift back.

It is called being deceptive.

Work out your salvation, Read the passage, The people are saved, Paul is telling them to work out the RESULTS of the their salvation with in them not to work out to earn their salvation.

A gift is something someong purchases to give to someone they love, asking for nothing in return

A reward, wage or prize is something you offer someone, but they have to earn it. It is not a gift..