Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Does God perservere or preserve?

The word KEPT is fairly clear....so is uttermost <----as in saved UNTO THE.......but hey....some of these people MUST HELP JEEEZUS because he is too weak to KEEP one saved.......

 

[Macabeus]

Hi M (hope you don't mind me calling you M, it's just that I can't remember how to spell your name you have)

Just so you know my post was not directed at you specifically.
I addressed your comment about that there are people on here who says that we can sin all we want and still be saved.

You then asked me to look at another thread and mentioned Bud & DC.
FHS agreed with you and added to it.

I don't know how long you have been here but there have been many a person on this site who have accused people of believing that we can sin all we want and still be saved. But what they are really saying is that we believe we can use grace as a license to sin and still be saved.

For me that is not true, it's abhorrent.
And to accuse another in Christ of saying that is the same.

To be honest I can't see you as having falsley accusing Bud of saying that we can sin all we want and be saved (and by this I'm referring to Romans 5-6) but I gave my understanding of what I think he was trying to convey in another response he gave to you, and I posted that response with my thoughts.

But you did use him as an example to prove your point.

It's interesting that you interpret something differently than I do.
I wonder why?

In my life as a believer I have only ever come across two believers who have said "Its ok God knows I will sin and will forgive me when I do"

So they committed said sins.
It distressed me and made my blood boil.

As I said such behaviour is abbhorent and should be addressed.
When addressed and no willingness to change then hand it over God.

Just a side note, if someone struggles with a sin pattern we need to come alongside and allow God to use us to bring healing and help.

God bless you bro

The issue is Bud's interpretation of 1 John 3:9

Would you please read 1 John 3:9 and then read the words below slowly and carefully.

Bud says it is referring to the New Nature. That is not the correct interpretation of 1 John 3:9

1 John 3:9, the verb "sins" is in the present tense. It is, if I am not mistaken either a continual or ititerative sinning. Now compare that to Romans 6:1, shall we continue in sin? God forbid.

Also compare to what Jesus said in John 5 to the man He healed. He said "go and sin no more"

We know that Jesus was not telling him to be sinless, right? But He told him to sin no more

There is a sense where "sins not" and "sin no more" does not mean be absolutely sinless, but do not CONTINUE in the sinful path that you were on.

 

[BillG]

No, but the OSAS people there strongly disagree with "a Christian can sin as much as they want."

I believe we are kept by the power of God through faith. That even when we fall, God picks us up again.

I do not believe in "a Christian can sin as much as they want"

and I do not believe in Christianity where the life of the Believer is unaffected by the New Nature, which is what it means when you say "the New man is sinless while the flesh sins as much as it wants. That smacks of Gnostic antinomianism

I am OSAS but totally disagree with that we can sin all we want and still be saved.
I believe we will still sin, when we do it's a conscious decision to do so.
I also believe we can sin but do not want to.

Either way we will come before God and ask for forgiveness (relationship) and ask for help.

We should never ever write off a genuine beliver who struggles with sin.
Not saying you do.
But my friend it does happen. It happened to me. Been there and got many a T-shirt.
And I thank God because he is now using me to walk with people who struggle like I have.

To me if someone seeks you out for help then that is a good sign.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am OSAS but totally disagree with that we can sin all we want and still be saved.
.

The above contradicts itself BILL............either one is 100% secure in Christ and regardless of sin will make the kingdom or they were never saved to begin with.....

There is a reason that GOD WHIPS his children, YANKS reward and inheritance and POSSIBLY even takes their life from them early <---and the ONLY REASON is sin or rebellion......!!

 

[Macabeus]

The word KEPT is fairly clear....so is uttermost <----as in saved UNTO THE.......but hey....some of these people MUST HELP JEEEZUS because he is too weak to KEEP one saved.......

God preserves the Christian (1 Peter 1:5), and as a result, the believer perserveres. (Hebrews 3:6)

Note- Hebrews 3:6 is a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive one. (just so you won't confuse the two like many here constantly do)

 

[BillG]

The issue is Bud's interpretation of 1 John 3:9

Would you please read 1 John 3:9 and then read the words below slowly and carefully.

Bud says it is referring to the New Nature. That is not the correct interpretation of 1 John 3:9

1 John 3:9, the verb "sins" is in the present tense. It is, if I am not mistaken either a continual or ititerative sinning. Now compare that to Romans 6:1, shall we continue in sin? God forbid.

Also compare to what Jesus said in John 5 to the man He healed. He said "go and sin no more"

We know that Jesus was not telling him to be sinless, right? But He told him to sin no more

There is a sense where "sins not" and "sin no more" does not mean be absolutely sinless, but do not CONTINUE in the sinful path that you were on.

To be honest mate I have read it and don't get it.
I don't get Romans 7 where Paul talks about sin residing in the flesh and it's not him sinning.

I don't get the new nature.
I know in Romans that the nature in one Bible is translated as flesh (sarx) but in another its nature.

I think when Jesus said go sin no more then I agree with you.
Every genuine beliver will not want to sin.
And when they do they hold their hands up before God. Confess it.
As you have said, it's relational.

 

[Macabeus]

The above contradicts itself BILL............either one is 100% secure in Christ and regardless of sin will make the kingdom or they were never saved to begin with.....

There is a reason that GOD WHIPS his children, YANKS reward and inheritance and POSSIBLY even takes their life from them early <---and the ONLY REASON is sin or rebellion......!!

Perserverance of the saints does not teach that you can lose your salvation. That is where your argument is fallacious.

After all these posts, YOU can't tell the difference between a descriptive and a prescriptive statement when you read.

That is why you cannot understand what I am saying. Not knowing the difference between a descriptive and a prescriptive statement creates misunderstandings, both in what others are saying and what the Bible says. And clearly you do not know the difference, because you and your friends keep confusing my DESCRIPTIVE Statements and interpreting them as if they prescriptive statements.

 

[UnderGrace]

The word KEPT is fairly clear....so is uttermost <----as in saved UNTO THE.......but hey....some of these people MUST HELP JEEEZUS because he is too weak to KEEP one saved.......

When I read the word "perserver" then I think, okay salvation now is based on my performance not on the finished work of Christ.

 

[BillG]

The above contradicts itself BILL............either one is 100% secure in Christ and regardless of sin will make the kingdom or they were never saved to begin with.....

There is a reason that GOD WHIPS his children, YANKS reward and inheritance and POSSIBLY even takes their life from them early <---and the ONLY REASON is sin or rebellion......!!

What I'm conveying is that if someone thinks they can sin all they want and still be saved with no regards then I would question whether they were saved to begin with.

However a child of God will not want to walk like this.
And if they do God will deal with them.
Those who are not his kids will be left to their own devices.

 

[dcontroversal]

Perserverance of the saints does not teach that you can lose your salvation. That is where your argument is fallacious.

After all these posts, YOU can't tell the difference between a descriptive and a prescriptive statement when you read.

That is why you cannot understand what I am saying. Not knowing the difference between a descriptive and a prescriptive statement creates misunderstandings, both in what others are saying and what the Bible says. And clearly you do not know the difference, because you and your friends keep confusing my DESCRIPTIVE Statements and interpreting them as if they prescriptive statements.

I did not address you and my argument in not fallacious pal........God is the one that does the KEEPING.....it has NOTHING to do with what WE DO.......!!

It is ALL Christ and he GETS all the glory....your view gives man some glory over Christ....do not address me please....Your divisive blather has broken the straw on the camel's back and I have not use for your input until you can get honest!!!

 

[Macabeus]

To be honest mate I have read it and don't get it.
I don't get Romans 7 where Paul talks about sin residing in the flesh and it's not him sinning.

I don't get the new nature.
I know in Romans that the nature in one Bible is translated as flesh (sarx) but in another its nature.

I think when Jesus said go sin no more then I agree with you.
Every genuine beliver will not want to sin.
And when they do they hold their hands up before God. Confess it.
As you have said, it's relational.

Romans 8 deals with overcoming the power of the Old nature.

God gave us a new nature to walk in, not so that we can walk in the old nature

Let me make my position very clear. I am not teaching sinless perfection. I am not saying that the fact that we sin means we're not saved. What I AM saying is that, and I am going to make a RARE prescriptive statement here, WE ARE TO WALK AFTER THE NEW NATURE, NOT THE OLD NATURE.

Do we fall into the habits of the old nature in Romans 7? Sure. Are we supposed to camp out there and let it rule over us. NO.

If you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. Romans 8:13

Practicing sin means living, dwelling, walking, abiding in, persisting in, the old nature. We as believers must not do this.

We may for a season, I admit I have more than once. But DO WE REMAIN THERE?

John says NO for a true believer.

 

[dcontroversal]

When I read the word "perserver" then I think, okay salvation now is based on my performance not on the finished work of Christ.

I know.....rather sickening..........steal a little glory from JESUS and place it on our shoulders........

 

[Macabeus]

What I'm conveying is that if someone thinks they can sin all they want and still be saved with no regards then I would question whether they were saved to begin with.

However a child of God will not want to walk like this.
And if they do God will deal with them.
Those who are not his kids will be left to their own devices.

Yes, when the Bible talks about "sin no more" and He that is born of God sinneth not, it is not saying we are sinless. It is talking about persistently and continually and in an ititerative manner. the same thing Paul addresses in Romans 6:1 and forward.

 

[dcontroversal]

What I'm conveying is that if someone thinks they can sin all they want and still be saved with no regards then I would question whether they were saved to begin with.

However a child of God will not want to walk like this.
And if they do God will deal with them.
Those who are not his kids will be left to their own devices.

The ability to overcome sin is tied directly to the ongoing process of sanctification and transformation as described in Romans 12......and exactly why the bible has very faithful servants and some believers that are carnal and worldly <---Corinthian Assembly........

And with everything in between...............the greater the transformation the less one sins and the exact opposite is equally true..........just like children that get no discipline and or instruction..........

 

[Macabeus]

When I read the word "perserver" then I think, okay salvation now is based on my performance not on the finished work of Christ.

That's not what it means. Your problem is that you judge something without even knowing what it means, which is rather silly.

People who do believe in "perserverance of the saints" DO NOT BELIEVE A TRULY SAVED PERSON CAN LOSE SALVATION.

Caps is for emphasis, not yelling.

 

[BillG]

Romans 8 deals with overcoming the power of the Old nature.

God gave us a new nature to walk in, not so that we can walk in the old nature

Let me make my position very clear. I am not teaching sinless perfection. I am not saying that the fact that we sin means we're not saved. What I AM saying is that, and I am going to make a RARE prescriptive statement here, WE ARE TO WALK AFTER THE NEW NATURE, NOT THE OLD NATURE.

Do we fall into the habits of the old nature in Romans 7? Sure. Are we supposed to camp out there and let it rule over us. NO.

If you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. Romans 8:13

Practicing sin means living, dwelling, walking, abiding in, persisting in, the old nature. We as believers must not do this.

We may for a season, I admit I have more than once. But DO WE REMAIN THERE?

John says NO for a true believer.

I know your position.
And I agree with it.
But remember we can be encompassed by the old nature and it does rule over us.
That's why we need to walk with those who are.
Telling them to stop it doesn't necessarily work
Afterall they are walking in/after the spirit.

 

[Limey410v2]

I am OSAS but totally disagree with that we can sin all we want and still be saved.
I believe we will still sin, when we do it's a conscious decision to do so.
I also believe we can sin but do not want to.

Either way we will come before God and ask for forgiveness (relationship) and ask for help.

We should never ever write off a genuine beliver who struggles with sin.
Not saying you do.
But my friend it does happen. It happened to me. Been there and got many a T-shirt.
And I thank God because he is now using me to walk with people who struggle like I have.

To me if someone seeks you out for help then that is a good sign.

The focus seems to be sin. Our focus in the New Covenant is Him (the Holy Spirit). Sin is no longer an issue between man and God, it was resolved on the cross. Our unrelenting focus on sin is what the other gospel is all about. If we are sitting around focusing on sin, we are not focused on the one that forgave sin. The main problem with the church today is it has become a behavioral modification program, where no one ever is right with God. That's a bunch of fooey. Sin is SOOOO evil, it took the death of God on the cross to resolve it. That was done 2000 years ago, and we had zero choice in that. We do however get to accept the free gift of the Spirit that can dwell within us as a result of that. Paul tells us to live in the Spirit, that is my focus. Sin is not. As I live in relationship with Him I probably sin less, but sin is not my concern, it WAS Gods, and I beleive Him when He said He won victory over it, for us. When I sin, I fully understand and am truly grateful that I am forgiven, and I thank him for his Grace and mercy

 

[BillG]

The focus seems to be sin. Our focus in the New Covenant is Him (the Holy Spirit). Sin is no longer an issue between man and God, it was resolved on the cross. Our unrelenting focus on sin is what the other gospel is all about. If we are sitting around focusing on sin, we are not focused on the one that forgave sin. The main problem with the church today is it has become a behavioral modification program, where no one ever is right with God. That's a bunch of fooey. Sin is SOOOO evil, it took the death of God on the cross to resolve it. That was done 2000 years ago, and we had zero choice in that. We do however get to accept the free gift of the Spirit that can dwell within us as a result of that. Paul tells us to live in the Spirit, that is my focus. Sin is not. As I live in relationship with Him I probably sin less, but sin is not my concern, it WAS Gods, and I beleive Him when He said He won victory over it, for us. When I sin, I fully understand and am truly grateful that I am forgiven, and I thank him for his Grace and mercy

Amen Bro amen Bro.

To focus on sin leads to doing. Rather being.
Being the child of our Father.
As we focus on being then we sin less.

Great post Limey

 

[Macabeus]

I know.....rather sickening..........steal a little glory from JESUS and place it on our shoulders........

Why don't you read below and find out what the doctrine teaches and then you won't get sick when you hear it.

These are statements of men who believe in the wholesome doctrine of "perserverance of the saints'

The infinite, mysterious, eternal love of God for his people is a guarantee that they can never be lost. Loraine Boettner (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

God hath given this charge to Christ, that whomsoever he elected, Christ should preserve them safe, to bring them to heaven. Christopher Love (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

Did Christ finish his work for us? Then … he will also finish his work in us. John Flavel (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

An inheritance is not only kept for us, but we are kept for it. Richard Sibbes (believed in the doctrine of perserverance)

God, by the exercise of his grace . . . infallibly prevents even the weakest saint from final apostasy. Loraine Boettner (beiieved in the doctrine of perserverance. )

Yeah, these guys believe we keep ourselves. .

 

[UnderGrace]

That's not what it means. Your problem is that you judge something without even knowing what it means, which is rather silly.

People who do believe in "perserverance of the saints" DO NOT BELIEVE A TRULY SAVED PERSON CAN LOSE SALVATION.

Caps is for emphasis, not yelling.

Exactly, why do I need a doctrine not explicitly taught in scripture.

There is no "truly" saved in scripture ....one is either saved or not...no need for modifiers