Not By Works

[blue_ladybug]

 

[Macabeus]

The good works were prepared before the casting down of the world in creation <---Ephesians 2

LIKE I SAID two months ago and you attacked me for saying it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Good morning BLUE....I have missed your input......

Morning Dave, I been busy doing other stuff lately.. but I see my presence is needed here.. lol

 

[dcontroversal]

Morning Dave, I been busy doing other stuff lately.. but I see my presence is needed here.. lol

More than you know HAHAHHAHAH

 

[lightbearer]

SO then good works are a gift from God, for without Him we can do nothing, right? (John 15:5)

I will just put these here.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
(Jas 1:17-18 KJV)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(Php 2:13 KJV)

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(Act 17:28 KJV)

 

[dcontroversal]

LIKE I SAID two months ago and you attacked me for saying it.

I would never attack you for something you said that was biblical...so either you said something I disagreed with, or one of us MISUNDERSTOOD something

 

[calibob]

Is that what Jesus said in John 15:5?

actually word for word mine says; "without him we can do nothing."

 

[Macabeus]

dcontroversal, post: 3844930, member: 183444"]I thought I heard it all until I heard WORKS are a gift from GOD..........especially when the whole bible points to works being the RESULT of faith and salvation......but hey........I guess there is always a new twist on the word........[

DC post 98,497-The good works were prepared before the casting down of the world in creation <---Ephesians 2

SO if the good works were prepared before the world was cast down, does that not mean they are freely given of God, and are therefore gracious and not meritorious?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

AND I say you have ignored JESUS, PAUL, the bible which constantly COMPARES us to WHEAT, TREES, VINES and the LOST to TARES......and NONE of your cited examples = insta fruit..........

SO which is it......now you are waffling........if it is NOT insta fruit then what IS IT.......either INSTA fruit or TIME.......Does it say that ANDREW and PHILLIP we saved that micro SECOND....or did JOHN the BAPTIST PREPARE the MATERIAL that JESUS called out...they were already SAVED and IMMERSED.......

AND...show me a verse that states putting an offering in IS FRUIT, or Praising GOD is FRUIT and the LAST time I checked the Samaritan people told the woman we believe because we have heard HIM SPEAK.....

You can get over it pal....I have been consistent with what I have said..........I have used the terms SOME, MANY, not ALL etc. all through this thread when discussing fruit and works.........so.......

Like I have said.....IF you cannot be honest and continue to cause problems and derail this thread into a circus.....do not address me and you are causing division <---NOT of GOD pal!!

I am done addressing your blather!

Amen.....present continuing result from a past completed action.....

Was saved at moment of belief
Am saved right now
Continuing to be saved into the future

Now compare these two ideas. The fruit of belief is instant salvation yet the first post claims there
is no instant fruit. What does this person actually believe?

And who is dividing believers? Who is condemning others are "not of God pal"........

But then those who wish to divide and confuse, and masters of smoke and mirrors, lol

 

[dcontroversal]

SO if the good works were prepared before the world was cast down, does that not mean they are freely given of God, and are therefore gracious and not meritorious?

I still never said or indicated that works are a gift from GOD.....it states the works were prepared before the casting down of the world......can you quote a verse which states works are a GIFT........

JESUS said....AFTER we have done all that we can do, to consider ourselves a lowly servant only doing those things which we have been commanded to do

I can find numerous "gifts of GOD" in the bible......I have not seen one verse which states the works we are to do are gifts....

 

[Macabeus]

"dcontroversal, post: 3846963, member: 183444"]He absolutely cannot accept the fact that works are NOT A GIFT, but rather SOMETHING WE DO and then GET PAID FOR (REWARD)

 

[dcontroversal]

Now compare these two ideas. The fruit of belief is instant salvation yet the first post claims there
is no instant fruit. What does this person actually believe?

And who is dividing believers? Who is condemning others are "not of God pal"........

But then those who wish to divide and confuse, and masters of smoke and mirrors, lol

FALSE......faith is a gift DEALT in measure and SALVATION is a GIFT given freely.....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The examples you have above, do you consider them as bearing fruit?

I have always considered bearing fruit to be the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

The above follows

Galatians 5:16-21

Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So to me Paul is bringing a contrast of the works of the flesh, which as belivers walking in the Spirit will manifest fruit, and as it increases the works of the flesh decrease.

So that has always been focus concerning by bearing fruit.

I'm not negating telling people about Jesus in any way shape or form.
But for me if we walk the walk with Holy Spirit then people will see this.

There is nothing worse than telling people about Jesus and yet walk according to the flesh with no regards to actually bearing fruit.

Now to me that is greasy grace.

Hi Bill,

Do you accept some speak with authority in Christ yet their hearts are closed off to Christ?
I ask because the unusual idea that if I express a belief that people come to faith yet backslide
and fall away, based on actual observation of people I know, how does this make me worthy of
not walking with Jesus.

It is like saying a rally driver is not competing in a rally race because they believe rally drivers can
total their cars. It is the competing that defines who they are, not their ideas how you can muck
it up.

 

[Macabeus]

I still never said or indicated that works are a gift from GOD.....it states the works were prepared before the casting down of the world......can you quote a verse which states works are a GIFT........

JESUS said....AFTER we have done all that we can do, to consider ourselves a lowly servant only doing those things which we have been commanded to do

I can find numerous "gifts of GOD" in the bible......I have not seen one verse which states the works we are to do are gifts....

The works were PREPARED for us before the casting down of the earth, right?

...and we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS

Just an aside unrelated question...do you hold the preposition "en" in the second quote to be locative or dative?

 

[dcontroversal]

"dcontroversal, post: 3846963, member: 183444"]He absolutely cannot accept the fact that works are NOT A GIFT, but rather SOMETHING WE DO and then GET PAID FOR (REWARD)

So what....it is a truthful statement........we are paid wages (Mithos) for service rendered.......I.E. works that we do.....numerous sets of verses prove this truth.....

AGAIN.....when one conflates WORKS and FRUIT confusion follows........

 

[FollowHisSteps]

FALSE......faith is a gift DEALT in measure and SALVATION is a GIFT given freely.....

Not clear what is false here.
A believer is given faith as a gift, and because of this gift they are give salvation as a gift.

Sounds like people are passive in this view. God could give these gifts to anyone, and they
are instantly saved, and presumably can never be lost. Sounds like a calvanist universalism,
God chooses who is saved and who is sent to hell, and no one can do anything about it.

 

[Macabeus]

OK, got to go. time for breakfast. Have fun

 

[Macabeus]

So what....it is a truthful statement........we are paid wages (Mithos) for service rendered.......I.E. works that we do.....numerous sets of verses prove this truth.....

AGAIN.....when one conflates WORKS and FRUIT confusion follows........

Works that are pleasing to God are ALWAYS the result of fruit, are they not?

G'day, now.

 

[dcontroversal]

The works were PREPARED for us before the casting down of the earth, right?

...and we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS

Just an aside unrelated question...do you hold the preposition "en" in the second quote to be locative or dative?

The Good works were prepared IN CHRIST......WE as living sacrifices are being used by GOD with CHRIST through us is DOING the work.......that is what MOST do not UNDERSTAND and or GRASP......and EXACTLY why JESUS gets ALL the glory and why WE are told NOT to glory......WE are ONLY SERVANTS and LIVING sacrifices......---------CHRIST through US....a USABLE VESSEL........

Unto is not given by the preposition "ἐν"

en: in, on, at, by, with
Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Definition: in, on, at, by, with
Usage: in, on, among.

The Dative aspect is given in....

Christ JESUS <---Dative Masculine Singular
Good works <----Both Dative Neutral Plural
Which <---Dative Neutral Plural
Them <---Personal Pronoun Dative Neutral 3rd Person Plural

The dative is is used for three purposes

1. as the indirect object of a verb
2. how or with what something is done.
3. relationships of place where and time when

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Good works were prepared IN CHRIST......WE as living sacrifices are being used by GOD with CHRIST through us is DOING the work.......that is what MOST do not UNDERSTAND and or GRASP......and EXACTLY why JESUS gets ALL the glory and why WE are told NOT to glory......WE are ONLY SERVANTS and LIVING sacrifices......---------CHRIST through US....a USABLE VESSEL........

Unto is not given by the preposition "ἐν"

en: in, on, at, by, with
Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Definition: in, on, at, by, with
Usage: in, on, among.

The Dative aspect is given in....

Christ JESUS <---Dative Masculine Singular
Good works <----Both Dative Neutral Plural
Which <---Dative Neutral Plural
Them <---Personal Pronoun Dative Neutral 3rd Person Plural

The dative is is used for three purposes

1. as the indirect object of a verb
2. how or with what something is done.
3. relationships of place where and time when

Works PRODUCE fruit.

You work in the field to produce fruit.