Not By Works
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Really?
I'll have to listen to it again with that in mind.
Of course....I don't know much about boxing...so I'll take your word for it!
Oh. And if you box.....
Don't ever get mad at me!
LOL
N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
@FranC
if youre talking about the silly disguise joke i deleted before you said this, that wasnt directed at you (something like "being banned and coming back only to refuse to admit it is like being kicked from a congregation and coming back in a fake mustache and glasses and not answering others when they ask if they know you")
i deleted it because as much as i agree with it
instead of joking id like to be more serious....
i do think peter is disingenuous with a dangerous amount of errors in his understanding... i have tried to reach him
it is always unfruitful and a waste of time he has said many many many lies... and justifies them as righteousness and usually follows with attacks on Gods children
if this individual cant answer with a simple no he is not the man who functioned as a wolf only to be banned twice for his attacks against others
there is no reason to speak to him
but you once (or 100 times) said something like
"the easiest way for evil to win for good to do nothing"
(sorry if i messed it up)
so i see nothing wrong with brothers and sisters asking someone something like this when this a congregation where anyone can be wearing masks
PennEd,
I was wondering what drives people such as yourself to push a point, and when they think
they have found it, point a finger and then condemn someone else. Sounds like the pharisees
and what they were good at. Killed a lot of people of God.
And Penn my friend, you are among people who condemn the Nazarene Churches as unbelievers.
So whoever you are, choosing to side with ones foes never goes very well,
God bless you
How deep does this rabbit hole go, and who really knows the risen Christ?
Praise the Lord His sheep know His voice, and listen and follow. Thank you Jesus.
On this subject, is sharing scripture, witnessing to His work in ones heart evil?
If this is how you think, then maybe your heart is full of darkness and not light my friend,
seek the Lord and His ways and He will show you His light everlasting, Praise the Lord
Haha! No worries.
I do box yes i have since I can remember. Two hobbies I love is boxing and horses!
A little point - just a small one - trying to say things one step away from the subject or contents
just leads to meaningless interactions.
So saying there are issues with someone, is a warning to someone who trusts you.
Saying what the issues are, arms all parties so things can progress.
I suspect the problem is people come armed with assumptions and ideas like sick, evil etc. when
actually this is only how we can cope with what they represent.
It is why Gods people walking in the Spirit, according to His word, will always be hated. His people
represent light in a world of darkness, clean rejoicing buckets in a world of slop and shame.
thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:57
just leads to meaningless interactions.
So saying there are issues with someone, is a warning to someone who trusts you.
Saying what the issues are, arms all parties so things can progress.
I suspect the problem is people come armed with assumptions and ideas like sick, evil etc. when
actually this is only how we can cope with what they represent.
It is why Gods people walking in the Spirit, according to His word, will always be hated. His people
represent light in a world of darkness, clean rejoicing buckets in a world of slop and shame.
thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:57
Asking questions?
I remembering asking a fellow sister in Christ about love and loving others.
She found this so challenging she attacked me and told me where to go.
I was proving a point about our buckets and are they full of slop or the Lord.
Truth within is always harder than how we appear to the real world.
Praise God He can resolve our inner world so it reflects our outer world.
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
2 Cor 4:6-7
I remembering asking a fellow sister in Christ about love and loving others.
She found this so challenging she attacked me and told me where to go.
I was proving a point about our buckets and are they full of slop or the Lord.
Truth within is always harder than how we appear to the real world.
Praise God He can resolve our inner world so it reflects our outer world.
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
2 Cor 4:6-7
Part 2.
In other posts you have stated differently, but I agree with this statement here. I have always said that faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and obedience/good works which follow are the FRUIT. NO FRUIT AT ALL demonstrates there is NO ROOT.
Fruit of the Spirit is the visible effects of the Holy Spirit by those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I never stated differently....how is this different?
Faith in Christ saves us.
AFTER salvation we are to obey God and do good works/deeds.
This is the fruit of our salvation....
No fruit (works).........
No salvation....
How many times have I stated this?
In order to have these fruit.....
we must obey.
I don't think we disagree. It's that word MUST that some don't like...
But we're talking about God here.
God does not MAKE REQUESTS.
HIS WORD is a command.
If God says it......We do it.....we don't get to choose on HIS Conditions for our salvation.
Where does the Bible say, "lose sanctification" or "lose justification" or "lose salvation?"In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
There is a difference between the two.
This requires scripture....
OK....
One thing at a time...I asked you this about a week ago and you never answered.
You keep talking about a past tense for a future action.
I asked you: If this the present perfect tense or the aorist tense? you didn't answer.
You want the exact words "lose salvation".....how does LOST sound to you....how does DEAD sound to you..... If we are LOST or DEAD......are we still saved?
I don't have the time now to get into this in full.....can do at a later time...
BUT
How about all the conditional words in the N.T.?
IF, CONTINUE, etc.
Here are some verses....there are PLENTY more....we are EXHORTED to keep our faith...
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.
Luke 22 31-32
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.
PART 1 OF 2
1 Timothy 2 :18-20
18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2 Timothy 2:v16-19
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.
Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.
1 John 5:4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2:16 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).
Revelation 2:10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.
part 2 of 2
So you are saying to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body in James 2:15-16 is NOT a "good work" and to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to NOT break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) which is NOT found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). Please explain to me which good works a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).
I don't understand what you're saying.
How could giving a brother something needed for the body NOT be a good work??
I am familiar with the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant) and with the New Covenant. Believers are not under 613 laws under the Old Covenant with all it's rules and regulations and you still cannot dissect the moral aspect of the law from the Old Covenant and it's not abolished in the New Covenant. Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the Old Covenant to "put legally into place" the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the New Command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10).
Yes,,,,if you know the covenants then you must know that the different laws CAN BE dissected.
The MORAL LAW will never be abolished. Impossible...it's the nature of God. This is our moral direction. And, as you must surely know, no covenant abolishes the previous one....it only adds to it, detracts from it, or makes it better somehow. You posted verses for the N.C....Ok,,,just to let you know that I studied them theologically and not just from the N.T.....I hope you've done the same.
Is clothing the naked a "good work?" Is refusing to clothe the naked to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). *That is my point. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. S
What James says is very simple....
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
James 2:20 That's exactly what it says.
Faith ALONE is useless and worth nothing...it's DEAD...not alive and living.
God wants us to have a faith that is ALIVE and living.
This requires clothing the naked (as best we can).
I've read your explanation of this verse many times,,,and I don't know why you want to complicate it.
It's VERY SIMPLE.
What do you mean So???? You keep missing the point that you CANNOT DISSECT GOOD WORKS FROM THE MORAL ASPECT OF THE LAW and teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Jesus did not say that works are the necessary means by which we obtain eternal life. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in regards to obtaining eternal life? Nothing about works and works are the fruit of salvation but never the root of it.
It amazes me how you continue to miss my point.
Of course we are to do good works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Again,,, then why are we arguing??
What do you mean by "these works" and "those works" --- yes. I don't understand. A work is a work...a good deed is a good deed. Jesus DID say we are to do good works.
Mathew 25....John 5:28-29....Mathew 7:23, The Beatitudes Mathew 5,,,,and so many more...
As to John 3,,,,yes,,,we are to be BORN FROM ABOVE FIRST....or our works HAVE NO VALUE IN GOD'S EYES.
I capitalize because I think this is what you mean by "those works".....not sure.
[/QUOTE]
open to expand
I'd like to go over all those verses in John , but no time now.
Later on if you want to.
So you are saying to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body in James 2:15-16 is NOT a "good work" and to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to NOT break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) which is NOT found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). Please explain to me which good works a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).
I don't understand what you're saying.
How could giving a brother something needed for the body NOT be a good work??
I am familiar with the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant) and with the New Covenant. Believers are not under 613 laws under the Old Covenant with all it's rules and regulations and you still cannot dissect the moral aspect of the law from the Old Covenant and it's not abolished in the New Covenant. Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the Old Covenant to "put legally into place" the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the New Command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10).
Yes,,,,if you know the covenants then you must know that the different laws CAN BE dissected.
The MORAL LAW will never be abolished. Impossible...it's the nature of God. This is our moral direction. And, as you must surely know, no covenant abolishes the previous one....it only adds to it, detracts from it, or makes it better somehow. You posted verses for the N.C....Ok,,,just to let you know that I studied them theologically and not just from the N.T.....I hope you've done the same.
Is clothing the naked a "good work?" Is refusing to clothe the naked to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). *That is my point. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. S
What James says is very simple....
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
James 2:20 That's exactly what it says.
Faith ALONE is useless and worth nothing...it's DEAD...not alive and living.
God wants us to have a faith that is ALIVE and living.
This requires clothing the naked (as best we can).
I've read your explanation of this verse many times,,,and I don't know why you want to complicate it.
It's VERY SIMPLE.
What do you mean So???? You keep missing the point that you CANNOT DISSECT GOOD WORKS FROM THE MORAL ASPECT OF THE LAW and teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Jesus did not say that works are the necessary means by which we obtain eternal life. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in regards to obtaining eternal life? Nothing about works and works are the fruit of salvation but never the root of it.
It amazes me how you continue to miss my point.
Of course we are to do good works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Again,,, then why are we arguing??
What do you mean by "these works" and "those works" --- yes. I don't understand. A work is a work...a good deed is a good deed. Jesus DID say we are to do good works.
Mathew 25....John 5:28-29....Mathew 7:23, The Beatitudes Mathew 5,,,,and so many more...
As to John 3,,,,yes,,,we are to be BORN FROM ABOVE FIRST....or our works HAVE NO VALUE IN GOD'S EYES.
I capitalize because I think this is what you mean by "those works".....not sure.
[/QUOTE]
open to expand
I'd like to go over all those verses in John , but no time now.
Later on if you want to.
Because they are hypocrites and are really legalists and condemners against anyone they consider
an unbeliever, while they can behave as they like because they are under grace.
Its slop bucket time. They can stink and have a slop bucket because to God it looks clean, but
for others God can actually see the truth and the slop bucket.
Bit of a problem when it becomes obvious God can actually see everything.
Depart from me evil doers, I think are His exact words.
Yes....well, Jesus did speak to this in Mathew 7:5
I've been called a hypocrite on this thread so many times I wish I had money for each time!
Maybe some here don't even realize what they're doing?
Anyway....
Must go now.
Ok
2 Beliefs That Set the Church of the Nazarene Apart From Other Christians
By Jeff Smith |
Organized in 1908 in California, the Church of the Nazarene has grown into an international Protestant denomination. More than 29,000 local churches in over 150 countries claim some 2.2 million Church of Nazarene Christians as members, according to the church's official website.
The denomination's mission is simple, taken from Acts 1:8 of the Bible: to make disciples of Jesus Christ around the world.
But, like any denomination, the Church of the Nazarene has certain core beliefs and practices. These two key beliefs set it apart from other Christian denominations:
1. Constant obedience to God through the Holy Spirit: The Church of the Nazarene believes that the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, enables born-again followers of Jesus Christ to consistently obey God, according to the denomination’s website.
Like-minded churches in the Evangelical Holiness movement share this view, but this belief is contrary to mainline Protestant denominations. Church of Nazarene Christians refute the notion of some Protestants that Christians are bound to sin because of their old sin nature and the temptations of Satan and the world around them.
The Church of the Nazarene believes that the Bible teaches that the lives of sanctified Christ followers should be mostly sin free and that disobedience to God should rarely occur if Christians are living by the power of the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit transforms them to be like Christ.
According to the Church of the Nazarene's articles of faith, "Sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God's grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration, entire sanctification and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification we are fully conformed to the image of the Son."
2. Entire Sanctification: The Church of the Nazarene is part of the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition, which believes in entire sanctification, according to the Wesleyan Heritage Recovery Project. Entire sanctification is summed up on the project's website:
"It is a state of perfect love, righteousness and true holiness which every regenerate believer may obtain by being delivered from the power of sin, by loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength and by loving one's neighbor as one's self. Through faith in Jesus Christ, this gracious gift may be received in this life both gradually and instantaneously and should be sought earnestly by every child of God."
While most denominations believe in sanctification, many Protestant churches don't believe that Scripture says entire sanctification is possible while living in a fallen world that is under the curse of sin. These denominations believe that entire sanctification only takes place when Christians go to heaven and God makes them new in both body and spirit.
Read Newsmax: 2 Beliefs That Set the Church of the Nazarene Apart From Other Christians
I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years.
Are you saying you have a problem with the above?
What is it?
BTW,,,,John Wesley believed we could achieve total sanctification in this life....
Does this mean sinless perfection?
No.
It means that the tendency that we have to sin IS GREATLY DIMINISHED.
Do you agree with this?
Thank you. Now this is more like it.
The point I am making which is quite simple really, your beliefs dictate your victory.
Jesus came and died that we might know victory. Why have unclean slop buckets if
the Lord can clean them?
If you had a choice which would you choose, stay as you are, or trust Jesus and take
the next step of transformation? Praise the Lord. Come Lord Jesus Come.
Interesting way of saying it!
In our normal being before knowing God....we have a sin nature which makes us tend to lean toward sin.
As Romans says,,,we are slaves to the one we serve and whether or not we care to know it,,,before salvation we most certainly are saving satan....even if we are not wicked persons just for the simple reason that we do not know God and are lost.
AFTER salvation the Holy Spirit endeavors to cleanse our heart. In fact, in Jeremiah and in Ezekiel God says He will give us a new heart, not made of stone, and on that heart He will write His laws.
This simply means that after knowing God we will WANT to keep His commandments.
This will greatly diminish the amount of sin in our lives,,,
what does this mean?
The closer we get to God....
The more we realize our sin.
The more we realize our sin,,,the more sensitive we are to it and the more we could say no to it.
This seems to me to be something to rejoice over...
not something to post on a thread meaning that there's something wrong with it.
I DO believe that a big misunderstanding is Wesley's idea of "entire sanctificaton" and some may understand this to mean NO SIN AT ALL,,,which is impossible when we realize HOW HOLY God is.
I now understand why some on here are accusing of the idea that, I included, are saying we never sin.
The misunderstanding is causing them to not even listen!
I'm glad this was brought up.....
I just saw your signature line:
AIM FOR PERFECTION.
This is good.
When my kids were going to school, I used to tell them to aim for 90 if they wanted to get an 80....
This is true for everything in life.
We should always aim higher than what we really believe we could accomplish...
So that we will at least accomplish what we had in mind!
What did I assume???
You keep saying that IT IS FINISHED and that Jesus DID IT ALL.
I was responding to that and saying it's not so....
And that you should get PASSED IT.
Sorry if it got you upset...you sound upset.