Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

He cannot state that he is a law breaker....even though he tap dances around it by saying HE HAS SINNED (past tense) and PROBABLY WILL again.....the word PROBABLY indicates the chance that he WON'T.......and one who constantly and incessantly pushes the LAW and some form of obedience to the law to remain righteous or saved absolutely cannot admit that he has always been and will always be a law breaker.......I used this analogy yesterday....

A man lives to be 100, has no tickets, never arrested, no jail time etc....is he a law breaker (concerning the worlds law) NO

A man lives to be 100 and at age 50 gets a speeding ticket....is he a law breaker..... (concerning the worlds law) yes

ALL MEN are LAW breakers (concerning God's law) NONE have kept it, NONE keep it and ALL are guilty except JESUS

ALL who say, imply, believe, push or indicate that they KEEP the LAW and or are righteous by KEEPING the law are deceived and not honest with the scriptures......end of story!

he can not. if he admits he is a law breaker, he contradicts himself. and he claims he can not practice what he preaches.

 

[Studyman]

[/COLOR]Wrong

This is paul saying these works we walk in will not saved us, We do them BECAUSE we are saved. But we are saved BY GRACE.

A man can do a work of God in the wrong attitude, and this work is a filthy rag, god does not get any glory. It is the power behind the works which makes it a work of God. not the work itself. Religious people do works which are considered of works of God all the time. (works of righteousness) yet again, Paul said we are not saved by these works but by Gods mercy. these works do not do them any good.. Proven by Jesus himself when these people tried to boast of those works, and jesus said depart, for he NEVER KNEW THEM.

That is something you workers do not comprehend.

The people in Matthew 7 that you speak of had religious works EG. But not the "works" that Jesus, The Word which became Flesh, created before hand that they should walk in them. It's in your Bible.

What part of the following do you not believe?

For by grace are ye saved through faith (In the Word which became Flesh) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (man's) works, lest any man should boast.

or.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (NOT MAN) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The Word which became Flesh didn't reject them because they had works EG, He rejected them because the "religious works" they "walked in" were created by man, not by the Word which became Flesh.

So then according to the Scriptures I am to be a "Doer" of the "Good Works" created beforehand by the Word which became Flesh for me to "walk in", not the religious "works" and traditions created by man.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, (The Word which became Flesh) he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I don't know how you can call this "wrong" by the Scriptures. James 2 sure doesn't.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So we need "Works" EG despite what you or the Pope preaches.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Who told Abraham to offer his son? The Pope? Benny Hinn? If Abraham's dad had told him to offer his son, would God have blessed him for this work?

No EG, Abraham showed his Faith and Love for the "Word which became Flesh" by following HIS INSTRUCTIONS, not religious man.


22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

How was Faith made perfect? By doing the "WORKS" of some religious institution or religious franchise? By following some man made religious traditions like those in Matt. 7 or like the Pharisees did?

No EG.

Faith is "made perfect" by walking in the "Works" created beforehand by the Word which became Flesh, as it is written in Eph. 2:10 and everywhere else in the Bible.

This understanding is not contradicted anywhere in the Bible, only by religious men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It might contribute to this discussion if we add James chapter 2 to understand the context he's sharing regarding the whole law. Is James's point that it's impossible to keep the whole law, or is he making another point?


---

James 2:1-12 (Berean)

1 My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism.


2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you lavish attention on the man in fine clothes and say, “Here is a seat of honor,” but say to the poor man “You must stand,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?


5 Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court?Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?


8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.


10 Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.


12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom. For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

---

What's James saying here? Are these words mistranslated?

james point is simple

if we CLAIM we have faith, but have NO WORKS. CAN OUR FAITH SAVE US

if we are hearers not doers.

If we say we love God but NEVER do a thing he says

If we CLAIM we are born again, but live like we did before we were supposedly saved

If we claim we are a new creation, but we still live like we are still our old creation.

Can our CLAIMED FAITH save us?

No. it never did, it is not now. and it never will.

so repent..

 

[dcontroversal]

Seohce, I seriously believe you don't actually read many replies. You simply look to see if anyone did reply to a post of yours, skim it - looking for catch words or phrases to latch onto, put whatever they wrote in a quotation box, and then quickly cut-and-paste a whole page of regurgitated stuff.

How clear are the words that JESUS BECAME A CURSE FOR US and ALL who hang on tree (cross) are cursed........HE BECAME SIN for us and is exactly why he became a curse, was hung on the tree and GOD the FATHER temporarily forsook him while on that cross....

His theology denies this and in so doing proves that his theology pushes a false JESUS that did not become a curse for us, was not hung on a tree and was not forsaken by the FATHER (by default of his first belief about the curse)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The people in Matthew 7 that you speak of had religious works EG. But not the "works" that Jesus, The Word which became Flesh, created before hand that they should walk in them. It's in your Bible.

What part of the following do you not believe?

For by grace are ye saved through faith (In the Word which became Flesh) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (man's) works, lest any man should boast.

or.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (NOT MAN) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The Word which became Flesh didn't reject them because they had works EG, He rejected them because the "religious works" they "walked in" were created by man, not by the Word which became Flesh.

So then according to the Scriptures I am to be a "Doer" of the "Good Works" created beforehand by the Word which became Flesh for me to "walk in", not the religious "works" and traditions created by man.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, (The Word which became Flesh) he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I don't know how you can call this "wrong" by the Scriptures. James 2 sure doesn't.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So we need "Works" EG despite what you or the Pope preaches.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Who told Abraham to offer his son? The Pope? Benny Hinn? If Abraham's dad had told him to offer his son, would God have blessed him for this work?

No EG, Abraham showed his Faith and Love for the "Word which became Flesh" by following HIS INSTRUCTIONS, not religious man.


22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

How was Faith made perfect? By doing the "WORKS" of some religious institution or religious franchise? By following some man made religious traditions like those in Matt. 7 or like the Pharisees did?

No EG.

Faith is "made perfect" by walking in the "Works" created beforehand by the Word which became Flesh, as it is written in Eph. 2:10 and everywhere else in the Bible.

This understanding is not contradicted anywhere in the Bible, only by religious men.

Give it up man

1. Paul said we are saved through grace (the means of which we are saved) and not by works (our own works of righteousnes) when we have faith in God.

2. Paul said those who have been saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS have been made new creatures. who WILL go out and do the work of God (our new identity)

Paul never said they might do works. or never insinuated that works of any kind can or will save you, maintain your salvation or keep you from losing salvation.

Thats your false precept.

 

[dcontroversal]

Thats why I rarely respond to him, I do not even read most of what he posts. Unless it is maybe a short post like the one i responded to. Which I am amazed he still does not get it.

Religion blinds men to the truth<---JESUS said this....--->Religious Pharisees....blind leaders of the blind....Just saying

 

[Studyman]

You be honest and tell us how we can be justified by anything other than the blood of Christ. Since the law required an animal be sacrificed for the remission of sin.

If it is grace it is no longer works, otherwise, grace stops being grace. if it is works. it is no longer of grace. otherwise, work is no longer work.

Work and grace are diametrically apposed. they repel each other. You can have one, or you can have the other. You can not have both.

I thought we were saved by "Grace through Faith". Are you now preaching Faith has nothing to do with Grace?

 

[dcontroversal]

You be honest and tell us how we can be justified by anything other than the blood of Christ. Since the law required an animal be sacrificed for the remission of sin.

If it is grace it is no longer works, otherwise, grace stops being grace. if it is works. it is no longer of grace. otherwise, work is no longer work.

Work and grace are diametrically apposed. they repel each other. You can have one, or you can have the other. You can not have both.

AMEN to this.....one or the other...a blend of both = a false gospel with no power to save a flea, much less a man.....

 

[dcontroversal]

he can not. if he admits he is a law breaker, he contradicts himself. and he claims he can not practice what he preaches.

Oh I know......................a catch 22 for sure........exactly why most criminals decry foul and innocence.......no ability to admit the truth....

I have yet to see one who pushes the law or obedience to the law as a part of their righteous standing and or for salvation to actually admit they break the very law abiding drivel that they push....and i do not mean tap dancing around indicating they have sinned and MIGHT SIN in the future, but rather an honest statement that they actually break the law.....

 

[Yahshua]

james point is simple

if we CLAIM we have faith, but have NO WORKS. CAN OUR FAITH SAVE US

if we are hearers not doers.

If we say we love God but NEVER do a thing he says

If we CLAIM we are born again, but live like we did before we were supposedly saved

If we claim we are a new creation, but we still live like we are still our old creation.

Can our CLAIMED FAITH save us?

No. it never did, it is not now. and it never will.

so repent..

Agreed. Repentance.

Conversely, what does it mean to still live like the old creation; to live like we did before we were supposedly saved?

What is a sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed. Repentance.

Conversely, what does it mean to still live like the old creation; to live like we did before we were supposedly saved?

What is a sin?

the old man had to take care of his own needs.

The new creature trusts God to take care of his needs, thus out of Gods love, We love others.. we sacrifice our own needs because we trust god.

Anytime we stop serving others and start to serve self no matter what the situation is, it is sin. if iknow to do right, but do not do it (I am taking care of my needs first) it is sin.

 

[Studyman]

Give it up man

1. Paul said we are saved through grace (the means of which we are saved) and not by works (our own works of righteousnes) when we have faith in God.

2. Paul said those who have been saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS have been made new creatures. who WILL go out and do the work of God (our new identity)

Paul never said they might do works. or never insinuated that works of any kind can or will save you, maintain your salvation or keep you from losing salvation.

Thats your false precept.

I just posted what Paul said EG.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (NOT MAN) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And again;

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

The "New Creatures" are created unto "Good Works" which the Word which became Flesh created beforehand that we should walk in them.

What happens if you refuse "walk in them"?

 

[Yahshua]

the old man had to take care of his own needs.

The new creature trusts God to take care of his needs, thus out of Gods love, We love others.. we sacrifice our own needs because we trust god.

Anytime we stop serving others and start to serve self no matter what the situation is, it is sin. if iknow to do right, but do not do it (I am taking care of my needs first) it is sin.

Agreed 100%: loving others, selflessness and trusting God.

So I could say then if we love our neighbor as ourselves and are selfless and trust God we do not sin, right? It's just the opposite of what you said.

Is it possible for the believer to be selfless, loving of others, and to trust God all the time? Or is it impossible? I'm not asking about probable or likely.

 

[dcontroversal]

I just posted what Paul said EG.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (NOT MAN) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And again;

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

The "New Creatures" are created unto "Good Works" which the Word which became Flesh created beforehand that we should walk in them.

What happens if you refuse "walk in them"?

We are whipped (chastened) God does not cast us away or yank our sonship by birth......GOD only chastens SONS......most like to say we are cast off or lose our salvation....if that was possible Chastening would have NO practical use whatsoever at all in a believer who is identified as a SON....

 

[dcontroversal]

Agreed 100%: loving others, selflessness and trusting God.

So I could say then if we love our neighbor as ourselves and are selfless and trust God we do not sin, right? It's just the opposite of what you said.

Is it possible for the believer to be selfless, loving of others, and to trust God all the time? Or is it impossible? I'm not asking about probable or likely.

John who was identified as the disciple that JESUS loved, the same John that was an apostle and the same one that wrote almost 20 percent of the bible was very clear when he stated the following verse in present tense and included himself...

IF WE say that WE have NO SIN, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US........

IF we never sin then why....

a. Does God chasten only SONS whom he receives
b. Does JESUS need to continually mediate for us
c. Does the grace of God OUTBOUND our sin <----written unto believers
d. Do the most faithful of the bible have accounts of sin or confessing sin
e. Do believers still die
f. Do some believers (laborers) have works of gold, silver and precious stones and some wood, hay and stubble
g. Are some saved yet so as by fire
h. Some cast out for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit will be saved
etc....

The truth is simple......we still carry the weak, fallen sinful flesh and many times we fail in submitting to the spirit which is indeed willing..........

 

[Yahshua]

John who was identified as the disciple that JESUS loved, the same John that was an apostle and the same one that wrote almost 20 percent of the bible was very clear when he stated the following verse in present tense and included himself...

IF WE say that WE have NO SIN, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US........

IF we never sin then why....

a. Does God chasten only SONS whom he receives
b. Does JESUS need to continually mediate for us
c. Does the grace of God OUTBOUND our sin <----written unto believers
d. Do the most faithful of the bible have accounts of sin or confessing sin
e. Do believers still die
f. Do some believers (laborers) have works of gold, silver and precious stones and some wood, hay and stubble
g. Are some saved yet so as by fire
h. Some cast out for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit will be saved
etc....

The truth is simple......we still carry the weak, fallen sinful flesh and many times we fail in submitting to the spirit which is indeed willing..........

Hey Dcon...But I haven't said 'never'.

To sort of borrow your analogy from earlier to hopefully make my question clearer:

Is a person who has broken the law of the land yesterday disqualified from being a model citizen and obeying the law today once forgiven of the crime?


Is a person who obeyed the law today immune from ever breaking the law tomorrow and ever after?



I think this is where the misunderstanding is. So let me ask my question more starkly...

Is it possible for the believer - who was once a slave to his old man, who sinned daily before conversion - to be selfless, loving of others, and to trust God all the time from that point forward? Or is it impossible?

I'm not asking about whether the person will probably sin, or asking whether he's likely to still sin having sinful flesh.

I'm asking is it possible one day, before the new flesh...or is it impossible?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

bump



pretty fresh page


Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God


Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law


Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love

1 John 5:4 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1 John 5:5 - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
________
Revelation 3:21 - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
____________

philippians

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

______

1 peter 1


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



praise God

triple bump

praise God


saved by grace through faith




dont confuse instruction for righteousness

admonishing of the self righteous

and product of not requirement for

 

[dcontroversal]

Hey Dcon...But I haven't said 'never'.

To sort of borrow your analogy from earlier to hopefully make my question clearer:

Is a person who has broken the law of the land yesterday disqualified from being a model citizen and obeying the law today once forgiven of the crime?


Is a person who obeyed the law today immune from ever breaking the law tomorrow and ever after?



I think this is where the misunderstanding is. So let me ask my question more starkly...

Is it possible for the believer - who was once a slave to his old man, who sinned daily before conversion - to be selfless, loving of others, and to trust God all the time from that point forward? Or is it impossible?

I'm not asking about whether the person will probably sin, or asking whether he's likely to still sin having sinful flesh.

I'm asking is it possible one day, before the new flesh...or is it impossible?

No one is sinless.....and the list and scripture I posted answers this or these questions...If you are asking if we can be faithful...yes we can be faithful, are you asking if we can be 100% sinless after salvation....NO....exactly why a, b and c are written unto believers.......can we be matured, sanctified in our walk and bring glory to God...YES, can we please God and serve God..yes....

I want you to ponder something.....

Out of the entire O.T. there were only three men listed that could be delivered by their righteousness IF IT WERE POSSIBLE
Out of the entire O.T. there was only ONE man listed that was translated that he should not see death
Out of the entire human race (untold billions or more) there was only one who 100% pleased God and walked in a manner that was without sin and or failure in some form or fashion.

Based upon the above truths.....what do you think?

 

[Studyman]

We are whipped (chastened) God does not cast us away or yank our sonship by birth......GOD only chastens SONS......most like to say we are cast off or lose our salvation....if that was possible Chastening would have NO practical use whatsoever at all in a believer who is identified as a SON....

The prodigal son came back to his father and did what he should have done to start with. Just like Noah did when he cried out to God from the Whales belly.

But what of the son who refuses to "turn again" to his father and continues to go his own way?

You say he wasn't a son to begin with? OK. Does that mean he Can't "turn to God"?

Rom. 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Wouldn't God chastise a son to "turn" him from one path to another? To teach him wrong from right? But isn't it the son who ultimately "chooses" whether he believes in his father or not?

 

[dcontroversal]

The prodigal son came back to his father and did what he should have done to start with. Just like Noah did when he cried out to God from the Whales belly.

But what of the son who refuses to "turn again" to his father and continues to go his own way?

You say he wasn't a son to begin with? OK. Does that mean he Can't "turn to God"?

Rom. 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Wouldn't God chastise a son to "turn" him from one path to another? To teach him wrong from right? But isn't it the son who ultimately "chooses" whether he believes in his father or not?

NOAH? from the whales belly?? How about Jonah....

And the prodigal son was a son throughout the whole process and only perceived as dead by his actions even though he was very much alive.....

And when he returned he had a robe and a ring, but no inheritance which he burned through riotous living....

AND show me where I said he was not a son to begin with....I have never said such a thing and or even implied it.....

and the word is clear....when one fails to get right, fails to endure chastening God can use the last straw....bring them home as he did the Corinthian brothers and sisters that had corrupted the Lord's supper.....

and your cited example in Romans does not have to do with salvation, but rather is the example of JEWS and GENTILES and the process of the Gentiles being grafted in.....