Not By Works

Endoscopy · Apr 3, 2018

Cee said:

You keep posting completely unrelated verses. Right now we are focusing on Jesus is our Sabbath.

You made an interesting point here:

Let's look at Matt 24:1 to understand this...

1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

Jesus is talking about the temple here. History tells us that because of the gold in the temple, Romans tore each brick apart stone by stone to get the gold. This happened in 70 AD. Just under 40 years from when Jesus spoke these words.

3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The disciples ask Jesus when will this happen? Speaking of the temple. And the end of the age which we could debate about what that means, some say it's to come others say it happened when the Temple was destroyed. But that's a completely different topic. Let's look at "when these things will be" speaking of the temple being destroyed.

15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Now, the holy place has been destroyed (this happened in 70 AD). And v16 says that this is written to those in Judea, I can't flee to the mountains of Judea in California. This is written to the JEWS of Judea. Interestingly enough all the Christians left before Romans sacked Jerusalem because of this prophesy here.

17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

Notice Jesus is referring to making haste. Getting out of dodge as we say. When you see the abomination of desolation flee. Get out of there. And pray it doesn't happen on a Sabbath. Written to the Jews, that's why we don't find this in any other book. It's specifically to the Hebrews.

But why? Well not happening in Winter is obvious right. But what happened in the times of Sabbath? The gates were locked. And the Jews would police their people not allowing them to leave. This command isn't to say, we will always keep the Sabbath, or to keep the Winter, this is a warning to make haste when they see the abomination of desolation. Which is exactly what happened in 70 AD. Million of Jews were killed. The temple was destroyed. They ran out of wood because of so many crucifixions. And according to the writings of Josephus, which I've read most of during this time period, some people were claiming to be the Messiah.

So as you can see Matt 24:20 isn't saying we have to keep the Sabbath. This happened within their generation. Which is 40 years, which fits with this Scripture in Matt 24 here:

Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The problem is similar prophecies are in Revelation and that was written after 70AD.

Dating when Revelation was written.

Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version after Nero's Great Fire in Rome (AD 64) under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian. The beast with seven heads and the number 666 seem to allude directly to the emperor Nero (reigned AD 54–68), but this does not require that Revelation was written in the 60s, as there was a widespread belief in later decades that Nero would return.

Endoscopy · Apr 3, 2018

Addendum
Also the abomination of desolation didn't occur. There was an attempt to place a gold statue of a Caesar in the temple but it was damaged first so it failed to be placed there. Therefore a new temple has to be built.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

GOOD MORNING SIS, JUST WONDERING WHO YOUR REFERING TO. KINDLY BE SPECIFIC. THANKS AND GOD BLESS.

Budman · Apr 3, 2018

Dcon is right.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." (Galatians 3:13).

The Bible says cursed is anyone who doesn't do all the works of the Law. (Galatians 3:10)

We can't keep the Law, and so; “For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us...(Romans 8:3-4)

It couldn't be any clearer.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

Budman said:

PAUL CLEARLY DESCRIBED WHO ARE THOSE HE CONSIDERED “CURSED”;

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

UNDERSTANDING THE ABOVE VERSE WILL BRING US TO THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE FF: VERSE;

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

WE SHOULD ALL KNOW THAT THE LORD JESUS IS THE “WORD THAT BECAME FLESH" AND ACCORDING TO JOHN “THE WORD IS GOD". (john 1:1-3 & 14)

GOD IS THE SUPREME BEING AND AUTHORITY WHO CREATED THE LAW FOR MAN AND NOT FOR HIMSELF SO WHAT IS MAN TO CALL HIM “CURSED"?

WHO AMONG BELIEVERS WOULD QUESTION GOD’S VULNERABILITY TO CURSES OR WHATEVER EVIL ACTS AGAINST HIM? ...PETER EXPLAINS IT BETTER;

2 Peter 3:14-18 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the ERROR of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

.. GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED…

...LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR…

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Budman · Apr 3, 2018

Seohce, I seriously believe you don't actually read many replies. You simply look to see if anyone did reply to a post of yours, skim it - looking for catch words or phrases to latch onto, put whatever they wrote in a quotation box, and then quickly cut-and-paste a whole page of regurgitated stuff.

NoNameMcgee · Apr 3, 2018

Katy-follower said:

V11-14 confirms the ONE perfect sacrifice of Jesus as being sufficient to save a person (and the only way), versus the many sacrifices offered repeatedly by priests, which can never take away sins.

Note that keyword in V27 "adversaries" which is not speaking of believers, since believers are no longer enemies. "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries"

V13: "........sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool"

The adversaries are non believers, who reject Jesus. But there is no other way for them to be saved. No other sacrifice for sins.

Concluding chapter 10 with V39: "But we (believers) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"

Believers are no longer enemies...

Romans 5:10-11: "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"

yup

well said sister

God bless you

eternally-gratefull · Apr 3, 2018

Seohce said:

PAUL CLEARLY DESCRIBED WHO ARE THOSE HE CONSIDERED “CURSED”;

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

UNDERSTANDING THE ABOVE VERSE WILL BRING US TO THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE FF: VERSE;

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

WE SHOULD ALL KNOW THAT THE LORD JESUS IS THE “WORD THAT BECAME FLESH" AND ACCORDING TO JOHN “THE WORD IS GOD". (john 1:1-3 & 14)

GOD IS THE SUPREME BEING AND AUTHORITY WHO CREATED THE LAW FOR MAN AND NOT FOR HIMSELF SO WHAT IS MAN TO CALL HIM “CURSED"?

WHO AMONG BELIEVERS WOULD QUESTION GOD’S VULNERABILITY TO CURSES OR WHATEVER EVIL ACTS AGAINST HIM? ...PETER EXPLAINS IT BETTER;

2 Peter 3:14-18 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the ERROR of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

.. GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED…

...LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR…

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

why do you mock God.

CURSED is Anyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the book of the law.

Paul is making A POINT. Anyone who does not continue in all things "every jot and tittle" and NEVER breaks one command, is under a curse. So if your TRYING to find God by law (be saved) then your UNDER A CURSE (because you have nbot met the requirement.'

for this reason , he who KNEW NO SIN (never broke the Law) BECAUSE A CURSE for us (in our place. known as making expiation, or remission) so that we may be made the righteousness of Christ in him.

Justificaiton is not found in the law. It is FOUND IN CHRIST

eternally-gratefull · Apr 3, 2018

Budman said:

Thats why I rarely respond to him, I do not even read most of what he posts. Unless it is maybe a short post like the one i responded to. Which I am amazed he still does not get it.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

Budman said:

Seohce, I seriously believe you don't actually read many replies. You simply look to see if anyone did reply to a post of yours, skim it - looking for catch words or phrases to latch onto, put whatever they wrote in a quotation box, and then quickly cut-and-paste a whole page of regurgitated stuff.

THANKKS AND GOD BLESS YOU!

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

THANKS AND GOD BLESS.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

JUST BE HONEST BRO AND TELL ME WHO SAYS THAT JUSTIFICATION IS BY WORKS "ALONE". EVERYONE SEEMS TO CLAIM THAT JUSTIFICATION IS THROUGH FAITH IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. THE QUESTION IS HOW DID YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT OUR LORD HAS DONE TO SAVE US? DID GOD PERSONALLY SPOKE TO EVERYONE TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?

PLEASE DON'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IF YOU WOULD INSIST ON A MANMADE "FALSE" DOCTRINE. NO OFFENSE BRO, GOD MAKES THE GROWTH.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

WHOEVER IS READY TO DESPISE ME NOW DON'T EXPECT A RESPONSE AT THIS TIME OR LATER ON COZ IT'S BEDTIME FOR ME NOW. I'LL JUST PRAY FOR YOU GUYS. THANKS AND GOD BLESS US ALL.

Seohce · Apr 3, 2018

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

dcontroversal · Apr 3, 2018

Cee said:

I skipped verses 5-8 for the sake of brevity, please don't assume I have any malicious intent.

Joshua spoke of another day because Christ is that rest. He was pointing to Christ. They didn't enter in because they weren't obedient to the gospel. Read the next verse to understand what Joshua was point to.

9 So then, there remains Sabbath rest for the people of God,10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also [SUP]u[/SUP]rested from his works as God did from his.

Notice here the Author isn't pointing to a Kingdom to come for their rest. He says whoever HAS entered in has rested from his works. Has means they already have it. They aren't waiting for it.

This single verse dismantles the argument that the Sabbath rest is coming in the future. Because if it was coming in the future the Author shows that we can enter in, we need to enter in, and entering in is resting from our works like God rested from His.

But why does the Author bring up Joshua? Because Israel couldn't enter in through Joshua because Christ is that true rest. Joshua was pointing to their need for Christ. As their true Rest.

Not sure why you keep quoting this Scripture, just because it says we will rest with them, doesn't mean that Jesus isn't our Sabbath rest. This isn't what this chapter is about, but Hebrews 4 is written about the rest of God. So we can't look at 2 Thess to disagree with the clear writings of Hebrews 4.

But I'll quickly address it, this word, isn't resting from labors. It's actually better translated as relief or repose. It's not the same Greek word that Hebrews 4 uses in describing the Sabbath rest of God. So we can't compare these 2 Scriptures because they are talking about different things.

The word being used in 2 Thess 1:7 is anesin. From the root word: Anesis.

Here's the Strong's for it:

Original Word: ἄνεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anesis
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-es-is)
Short Definition: relief, remission, indulgence, freedom, rest
Definition: relief, remission, indulgence, freedom, rest.

What this word is being used for is relief. Respite. It's talking about getting a break from a continual onslaught of attack. This isn't resting from our labors, it's being able to rest from continual trials and tribulations.

The Greek word for rest being used in Hebrews 4 is katapausin.

Taken from the Greek root word katapusis.

Here's the Strong's for it.

katapausis: rest

Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Short Definition: resting, rest
Definition: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

The root origin of kata pausis is this...
Word Origin
from kata and pauó
Definition: To cause to cease, to rest
NASB Translation
given...rest (1), rested (2), restrained (1).

You can see these words are completely different. One is a place of relief from attack. And the other is a rest from labors. And this is God's true rest. His Sabbath. As outlined in Hebrews 4 not 2 Thess 1:7.

When one who is not a Hebrew, focuses entirely upon the LAW with this incessant law keeping mindset, while not being able to admit the simple truth that they regularly break the law, and then views the scope of the rest found in Christ through said mindset, they will never be able to grasp the truth.......!

dcontroversal · Apr 3, 2018

This thread is about salvation by grace through faith void of works.....this is NOT ANOTHER SABBATH thread and I would appreciate it if the LAWYERS would stick to topic......there are numerous SABBATH threads to choose from....please quit derailing this thread by this incessant posting about keeping the law which NO MAN DOES!

eternally-gratefull · Apr 3, 2018

Seohce said:

You be honest and tell us how we can be justified by anything other than the blood of Christ. Since the law required an animal be sacrificed for the remission of sin.

If it is grace it is no longer works, otherwise, grace stops being grace. if it is works. it is no longer of grace. otherwise, work is no longer work.

Work and grace are diametrically apposed. they repel each other. You can have one, or you can have the other. You can not have both.

dcontroversal · Apr 3, 2018

Seohce said:

HOW CAN ANYONE NOT UNDER THE LAW BREAK THE LAW?

STOP YOUR DECEPTION AND YOUR PLOY TO DIVIDE THE BELIEVERS.

YOU HAVE CLEARLY DECLARED THAT THE LORD WAS "CURSED", NOW WHO'S AUTHORITY ARE YOU SPEAKING FOR TO QUESTION SOMEONES FAITH?

"LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW." AND WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE BECAUSE "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD AND A DEAD FAITH CAN SAVE NOONE.

New International Version 1984 Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP from your slumber, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW than when we FIRST BELIEVED.

New International Version 1984 Ephesians 5:8-14 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Go away and or post something truthful or relevant.........the law is in force and deems all guilty....especially one who incessantly pushes law keeping drivel to maintain righteousness before God....and your deceitful, incessant accusatory rigmarole is really getting old....

Yahshua · Apr 3, 2018

It might contribute to this discussion if we add James chapter 2 to understand the context he's sharing regarding the whole law. Is James's point that it's impossible to keep the whole law, or is he making another point?

---

James 2:1-12 (Berean)

1 My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism.

2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you lavish attention on the man in fine clothes and say, “Here is a seat of honor,” but say to the poor man “You must stand,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court?Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?

8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom. For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

---

What's James saying here? Are these words mistranslated?

dcontroversal · Apr 3, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

He cannot state that he is a law breaker....even though he tap dances around it by saying HE HAS SINNED (past tense) and PROBABLY WILL again.....the word PROBABLY indicates the chance that he WON'T.......and one who constantly and incessantly pushes the LAW and some form of obedience to the law to remain righteous or saved absolutely cannot admit that he has always been and will always be a law breaker.......I used this analogy yesterday....

A man lives to be 100, has no tickets, never arrested, no jail time etc....is he a law breaker (concerning the worlds law) NO

A man lives to be 100 and at age 50 gets a speeding ticket....is he a law breaker..... (concerning the worlds law) yes

ALL MEN are LAW breakers (concerning God's law) NONE have kept it, NONE keep it and ALL are guilty except JESUS

ALL who say, imply, believe, push or indicate that they KEEP the LAW and or are righteous by KEEPING the law are deceived and not honest with the scriptures......end of story!

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