Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

You have missed my point. Whether I believe that baptism is necessary or not should not matter according to your belief that we are saved the moment the HS enters us. No matter what I do after that is inconsequential, since I am saved, and I have faith in Jesus and the HG has immersed me into the body of Christ.

So whether I believe baptism is necessary, according to your belief is neither here nor there. So why are you so incensed to prove me wrong? Why are there others that call me names and think I am the devil and all that? If we are all saved the moment we believe and are immersed by the HS, why all the vitriol?

It starts to become obvious that you really do not believe what you think you believe. Having been saved, will I not be forgiven for believing that baptism is essential to salvation? You know, if I can be forgiven of murder and rape, I should be able to be forgiven for going out and teaching baptism. Am I right?

The point you are not getting is this. If your faith in not in christ alone (I see no proof whatsoever that yours is) you have never placed your faith in christ. If you have never placed your faith totally in christ. You have never been baptised by the spirit. If you have never been baptised by the spirit. Your not saved. You can get baptised a million times, Obey every law you can think of. Go to church every Sunday and for good measure wed night prayer meeting, Give to the poor, be involved in small kinds of mission, and anything else that you think Gods people do, You will still be dead in your sin.

so when are you going to repent, and trust God and stop trusting some church ritual, which is massively important in our walk (if we wil not get baptised. Which is easy, how are we going to do the hard work) but is not a means to eternal life.

 

[TruthTalk]

You and others ignore the relationship between faith and works. The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works are required to demonstrate true faith.

No works no faith.
Works proves faith.
Therefore works are required.

Faith saves.
Works proves saving faith.

No requirement for eternal salvation only believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And of course you have it written down backwards; it is not, "works proves saving faith" it is your faith will produce works, Christians are saved "unto good works" not by good works lest any one can boast. A child can understand this but you cannot because you are boasting in your works, which spells "Pride", no more need to explain the gospel truth to you because you will refuse to repent and believe.

Ephesians2:8-10 True Gospel
8) "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God
9) "not by works", so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."​

 

[jimd]

ps. Have you ever answered my question about eph, where Paul said there was ONE BAPTISM??

Paul is obviously speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not to say there is no baptism of water.

 

[benhur]

How insecure it must feel to believe one can undo what the Creator has done. How busy one must stay in order to maintain their salvation. Where is their peace? Where is their joy?

Let me know if you are referring to me, and then I will let you know where my peace and my joy are. Is that OK?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No requirement for eternal salvation only believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And of course you have it written down backwards; it is not, "works proves saving faith" it is your faith will produce works, Christians are saved "unto good works" not by good works lest any one can boast. A child can understand this but you cannot because you are boasting in your works, which spells "Pride", no more need to explain the gospel truth to you because you will refuse to repent and believe.

Ephesians2:8-10 True Gospel
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God
9) "not by works", so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

He does not get it, Work is a BYPRODUCT of faith, You do not need works to have faith. You need faith to have works.


All people who have faith will have works.

People who have no faith may do some works. They may even appear to be christians. But it does nto mean they EVEER had saving faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is obviously speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not to say there is no baptism of water.

Amen, There are many baptisms mentioned in scripture. It does nto means they are not baptisms. Or even that we should not do them. It just means in the gospel. Only one meters.

 

[TruthTalk]

By Grace Alone____________________________________Grace plus works

Simple example; By adding your wonderful works (boasting), to God's gift of eternal salvation you have muddied up the water.

Repent and believe the true gospel; "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe."

 

[Magenta]

You and others ignore the relationship between faith and works. The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works are required to demonstrate true faith.

No works no faith.
Works proves faith.
Therefore works are required.

Faith saves.
Works proves saving faith.

Who claims that works do not follow salvation?

You keep making these statements as if you are attempting to correct someone.
Some mysterious person who is nowhere to be found on this thread.

 

[benhur]

Yeah I guess Abel was so proud of how much work he did. And so proud of the sheep he gave. (He killed that little lamby)

The point was the what it symbolized. The lamb who gave his life for the sinner. Vs the human good giving the fruit of his labor for his own sin.

Wow, how we twist and move to get around the word 'good works'. So now that many have proven to you that Abel did do a lot of hard work go get that lamb to the sacrifice, and did a good work to sacrifice his lamb to God, you accuse him of pride.

Then you go to the symbolism of the sacrifice and say: the lamb gave his life for the sinner. Of course that is the symbolism, that the lamb is a type of Jesus Christ giving his life for the sinner in the future. The symbolism is not that some human did a good work by giving the fruit of his labor for his own sin. Why would you even suggest such an idea?

But it is true that Abel did a good work in sacrificing the lamb, that symbolized the great sacrifice that Jesus would make in the future.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow, how we twist and move to get around the word 'good works'. So now that many have proven to you that Abel did do a lot of hard work go get that lamb to the sacrifice, and did a good work to sacrifice his lamb to God, you accuse him of pride.

No actually you did not prove anything, What you you all did is assume (you have no idea how much work Abel did to raise that lamb, and it was only required to be a year old?) Things in Abels day was nto the same as today was. All we know. Being a shappeard was nto so hard back then, But we do know God cursed the ground, so we know how hard it was for Cain.

Then you go to the symbolism of the sacrifice and say: the lamb gave his life for the sinner. Of course that is the symbolism, that the lamb is a type of Jesus Christ giving his life for the sinner in the future. The symbolism is not that some human did a good work by giving the fruit of his labor for his own sin. Why would you even suggest such an idea?

because THAT IS WHAT CAIN DID. Or did you forget the jist of the discussion? They (you?) Were trying to say both cain and abel gave of the fruit of their labors.

But it is true that Abel did a good work in sacrificing the lamb, that symbolized the great sacrifice that Jesus would make in the future.

Abel shows he had faith, By doing what God said. Cain tried to appease God by his work.

Abel was saved BEFORE he worked. By his faith, His work was a byproduct.

 

[benhur]

I have no phobia of work my friend. I am retired military, and there are times I work 60 to 70 hour work weeks. So please. Stop trying to think. And maybe for once in your life. Try to listen?




The BLOOD of the lamb was accepted. Not Abel’s sacrifice

I know thats hard for you people who want to earn your salvation. But that is a fact.

Of course you are a hard worker, but you still have a phobia of using the words 'good works' in any of your religious discussions, unless it is to criticize someone who believes 'good works' are important in some way.

As for God accepted the blood of the lamb, but not Abels sacrifice, see this scripture:
[FONT=&quot][h=1]Genesis 4:4 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

So I think God was happy with both the blood of the lamb, and Abels effort and had respect for Abel's good works.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course you are a hard worker, but you still have a phobia of using the words 'good works' in any of your religious discussions, unless it is to criticize someone who believes 'good works' are important in some way.

As for God accepted the blood of the lamb, but not Abels sacrifice, see this scripture:
Genesis 4:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

So I think God was happy with both the blood of the lamb, and Abels effort and had respect for Abel's good works.

Dude get off your high horse, and stop lieing about what people believe. I am so sick of you people who think you can come in here and lie about other people. Because they happen to disagree with you.

I have NO aversion to good works in the christian life period. What your doing is telling people a lie because you do not want to listen to anyone

I have an aversion to trying to go to God on judgement day and when he asks why he should let me in, I tell him because of my hard work.

Maybe you are secure in telling God he should let you in because of your hard work (the pharisee) But I will go like the tax collector. I will be on my knees, Because I KNOW I am unworthy for anything God may give me, in this life or the next.

 

[benhur]

disingenuous



of course you look to works...


cain was denied because he felt his offering would please God

abel was accepted because he offered a sacrifice

not because his sins were actually covered by that sheep
just like the sacrifices of the Hebrews didnt cover their sins

its a sign of whats to come
the final sacrifice of Jesus our Lord and savior

the Lamb without blemish


only if you trust in your works to
earn salvation
preserve your salvation
or maintain your salvation in anyway....

that means you dont have faith in Jesus for salvation
but your efforts (self....)

I believe that there is a partnership between Jesus and me. I do what I am supposed to do (I love him and keep his commandments) and he makes up my shortfall with his grace and forgives me of my sins, and I have the opportunity to live with him for eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that there is a partnership between Jesus and me. I do what I am supposed to do (I love him and keep his commandments) and he makes up my shortfall with his grace and forgives me of my sins, and I have the opportunity to live with him for eternity.

So its you plus God, and as long as you continue to do things, You may get to heaven. (You call that opportunity)

Then how can you claim you have faith in God. I am honestly asking my friend.

 

[benhur]

all "biblical guidance" supported by a false gospel is far beyond my grasp since God has opened my eyes



the flimsy grace doctrine you push

with mans will deciding wether or not he be saved based on his own efforts is not of God

Your right, the above rendition of our beliefs is not of God. (But neither is it our beliefs, so thanks for misquoting) Believing in God and receiving the HS, and loving him and keeping his commandments are of God.
That his grace will save us is also of God. We combine the 2 and that is our theology. They are both of God. The scriptures are full of these guidelines and doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your right, the above rendition of our beliefs is not of God. (But neither is it our beliefs, so thanks for misquoting) Believing in God and receiving the HS, and loving him and keeping his commandments are of God.
That his grace will save us is also of God. We combine the 2 and that is our theology. They are both of God. The scriptures are full of these guidelines and doctrine.

Yet keeping his commands is not why we are saved. If one says it is, they are teaching law. And thats the problem. Because they do not understand law. If they did understand law. They would never claim obedience is required to be saved, because they would KNOW and UNDERSTAND no amount of obedience will ever put us over the standard required by God. And then they will truly understand the cross.

 

[benhur]

romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
_____________

Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Good scritpure. Now reconcile this scripture with the above, and we will be closer together.
[h=1]James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/FONT]

 

[benhur]

Too many ignore the relationship between faith and works. True faith produces works. The Bible states that faith without works is dead. Therefore works proves the faith is real. Works here is those supporting the Bible and Jesus concepts. Not working for something else like earning a living.

Very well said. There is a relationship between faith and works. You must have faith first, and then we love God and keep his commandments. In the end, God saves us by his grace, and we are allowed to enter His KOH sinless and live with Him for eternity. It all fits together in a fine mosaic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good scritpure. Now reconcile this scripture with the above, and we will be closer together.
James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is easy.

1. Paul wrote to people ADDING works to the gospel of grace, In his argument, he showed the truth. Abraham was saved before he did one work. He was saved by his faith, IF he was saved by his works, he would be able to boast. Because he EARNED his salvation.

2. James spoke to people who CLAIMED to have faith (He never said they had faith) He called them hearers of the word only, not doers. He told them to test their faith. If YOU CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH but you have not the works that ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE SAVED have/. How can you say your faiht will save you (you may believe, but even demons believe, what good did it do them)

If you claim to have faith but have NO WORKS (zero Zip Nada) Your faith is dead. Are you saved? No. Have you ever been saved? No. Will you be saved if you continue to just believe, and not repent and come to faith? No!

ie. Paul spoke to people like you. Who wants to add works to the gospel

James spoke to people who think they can say a sinners prayer and they are saved, and can continue to live however they wish (Jude called them out as turning the grace of God to licentiousness)

Bot legalism, and liscentiousness are evil and false gospels not given by God. Both will keep people from heaven, both will lead people directly to hell.

SINCE one was arguing against one type. And the other was arguing against the other type. They APPEAR to be saying different things, when in reality, they do not.

Paul said in Eph 2: 8-10 that those saved by GRACE through FAITH apart from works, WILL do the works they were created to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very well said. There is a relationship between faith and works. You must have faith first, and then we love God and keep his commandments. In the end, God saves us by his grace, and we are allowed to enter His KOH sinless and live with Him for eternity. It all fits together in a fine mosaic.

God saves you the moment you have faith.

Those who have faith in God to save them eternally will also have faith in minor things, and actually do works.

What part of titus 3: 5 do you not understand?

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but BY HIS MERCY HEW SAVED US!

is it really that hard?