Not By Works

[ruach]

Thank you ruach. Manifold means various aspects of His nature. A phrase unfamiliar to me. I can't recall any teaching on this.

But, I still would not separate it from unmerited for the Hebrew shows the picture of God Himself bending towards man in kindness. Same as giving His most prized possession to us freely.

It is very separated and cannot be confused with saving Grace. All grace is unmerited to us. Whether it be grace that saves or teaches us or gives gifts. That said, Saving grace is not the same grace that teaches you to deny ungodliness and worldly desires , nor is is the same grace that gives you a gift in Romans 12.

Manifold grace various aspects of his nature Saving grace is not the teaching grace defined in Titus 2:11-15. Likewise, grace gifts found in Romans 12:6 are not saving grace.


Manifold is also used describe God's wisdom in Ephesians 3:10. It is not one wisdom, but different aspects of Wisdom as Proverbs 8, 9, Job 28 and Isaiah 11 point out.

 

[stonesoffire]

It is very separated and cannot be confused with saving Grace. All grace is unmerited to us. Whether it be grace that saves or teaches us or gives gifts. That said, Saving grace is not the same grace that teaches you to deny ungodliness and worldly desires , nor is is the same grace that gives you a gift in Romans 12.

Manifold grace various aspects of his nature Saving grace is not the teaching grace defined in Titus 2:11-15. Likewise, grace gifts found in Romans 12:6 are not saving grace.


Manifold is also used describe God's wisdom in Ephesians 3:10. It is not one wisdom, but different aspects of Wisdom as Proverbs 8, 9, Job 28 and Isaiah 11 point out.

Ok, will look at that. Thanks!

 

[stonesoffire]

Ok, will look at that. Thanks!

Just did. This is what I've been calling the chastening of the Lord ruach. It most definitely saves our soul, forvthis is the part of us still connected to earth, and the world spirit pulls on those things that our mind being yet unrenewed in some area, still desires.

But, isn't applicable to our sealed Spirit.

 

[ruach]

Just did. This is what I've been calling the chastening of the Lord ruach. It most definitely saves our soul, forvthis is the part of us still connected to earth, and the world spirit pulls on those things that our mind being yet unrenewed in some area, still desires.

But, isn't applicable to our sealed Spirit.

I am at a loss how you think grace is chastening or discipline. If grace is instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, then why would grace need to chasten you?

I am not saying he does not or he wont Chasten, but I think you are presenting a very interesting picture of what manifold grace is or is not.

 

[gb9]

yes, those interested in trying to know God instead of just furthing ancient religious traditions will read the Post and know exactly what the point is. But those who simply use the Parts is the Bible they can twist to justify their disobedient lifestyle will not get the point. Finally something we can agree on.

being saved by grace is not an " ancient religious tradition " it is Biblical truth. some just cannot accept it. some see as a get out of sin free card. but, that is their ( your ) error. when a Christian is asked about being saved, or being " right with God", the first words out of their mouths should be about what Christ did on the Cross, not law or Sabbath.

now, I get the sense , based on your comments about the Talmud , that you are a truther . so, I say this from one to another, you are like some I know, too far down the rabbit hole. to the point of thinking that everything is a lie, everything is a conspiracy. pull out, and accept truth, don't doubt everything . because everything is not a satanic lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am at a loss how you think grace is chastening or discipline. If grace is instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, then why would he need to chasten you?

I am not saying he does not or he wont Chasten, but I think you are presenting a very interesting picture of what grace is or is not.

its simple.

if not for Grace, God owuld let us live however we want, and in the end just cast us all to hell.

Grace allows him to chasten those who are his, Because hge has/is forgiving them, and that allows him to be free to love them, even in discipline.

 

[stonesoffire]

Just did. This is what I've been calling the chastening of the Lord ruach. It most definitely saves our soul, forvthis is the part of us still connected to earth, and the world spirit pulls on those things that our mind being yet unrenewed in some area, still desires.

But, isn't applicable to our sealed Spirit.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I don't know what you consider chastening ruach, but to me it is the reading of the scriptures, and then Holy Spirit in the searchlight of our heart, will pin point a scripture to us, that addresses something within.

Shows His work in our life does it not? That we are His.

 

[ruach]

its simple.

if not for Grace, God owuld let us live however we want, and in the end just cast us all to hell.

Grace allows him to chasten those who are his, Because hge has/is forgiving them, and that allows him to be free to love them, even in discipline.

I see where you guys are going. I agree in part, he uses grace in his discipline as Hebrews 12 illustrates, but I would not be as bold to suggest grace is discipline. Discipline is just that. It is discipline and he gracefully administers that discipline and sometimes even then it hurts and and not joyful as Hebrews 12 says. But discipline/chastening is not grace.

 

[ruach]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I don't know what you consider chastening ruach, but to me it is the reading of the scriptures, and then Holy Spirit in the searchlight of our heart, will pin point a scripture to us, that addresses something within.

Shows His work in our life does it not? That we are His.

Using your analogy here, you would be saying Bible Teachers ONLY discipline and chasten their students. No,they teach their students, and at items may have to keep them in a straight line. Teaching is not chastening and reproving. Therefore Grace is not discipline or chastening.

Chastening is what Hebrews 12 says it is. Needed correction done in love.

 

[stonesoffire]

I see where you guys are going. I agree in part, he uses grace in his discipline as Hebrews 12 illustrates, but I would not be as bold to suggest grace is discipline. Discipline is just that. It is discipline and he gracefully administers that discipline and sometimes even then it hurts and and not joyful as Hebrews 12 says. But discipline/chastening is not grace.

I never said grace is. Saving grace is. Isn't grace the gift of Holy Spirit? And doesn't Strongs define it as Divine influence? Then, isn't He our teacher? Teaching things that can only come from God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see where you guys are going. I agree in part, he uses grace in his discipline as Hebrews 12 illustrates, but I would not be as bold to suggest grace is discipline. Discipline is just that. It is discipline and he gracefully administers that discipline and sometimes even then it hurts and and not joyful as Hebrews 12 says. But discipline/chastening is not grace.

I never said grace was discipline

I said God Disciplines because of grace.

 

[stonesoffire]

Using your analogy here, you would be saying Bible Teachers ONLY discipline and chasten their students. No,they teach their students, and at items may have to keep them in a straight line. Teaching is not chastening and reproving. Therefore Grace is not discipline or chastening.

Chastening is what Hebrews 12 says it is. Needed correction done in love.

Brother, where in any of my posts did I say bible teachers?

 

[ruach]

Brother, where in any of my posts did I say bible teachers?

I used Bible teacher as an example. read closer please.

 

[Endoscopy]

Once saved always saved belief says that the person who does not show he is saved and show it to the very end was never really saved to begin with. That makes works required to be saved or else you're not saved. Apparently, those who have been bashing us as 'works salvationists' did not know that was right in their own once saved always saved doctrine.

And then there's this new once saved always doctrine that says it doesn't matter at all what you do after you believe, you do not have to have any works, and you can even go back to unbelief, and you will still be saved, as long as you believed in the beginning. THAT is the belief that makes grace a license to sin.

So I'm asking not only decontroversial, but everyone else here who believes 'once saved always saved' which once saved always saved they are. If you say the first one THEN WHY YOU BEATING UP ON US??? We agree with you that works are required or else you are not born again. And if you say the second one then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

So which one are you? This is to all you who have been calling us names and beating up on us for agreeing with your once saved always saved doctrine and saying you have to have works or you are not saved.

Jesus said those the Father put in his hand He would never let go. The issue is who is put in his hand. Those are the true believers not the ones that Jesus will say "begone I never knew you". Then there is the verse that says by their fruits you will know them.

 

[stonesoffire]

I used Bible teacher as an example. read closer please.

then don't ascribe it to what I said please.

must go....can't believe I've been here most of the day!

 

[VCO]

We'll know if that really happened by if you are growing up into works of obedience. That makes works of obedience required when Jesus comes back. If you're not producing works of obedience then you're not really saved. That's what is being ignored here thinking that can only be a works gospel.

You have to have works of the Spirit and not be living in your old life when Jesus comes back or you did not really get saved as you think you did. And if you did really get saved, then this message about obedience will stir you up to righteous indignation to clear yourself and you will be determined to produce the obedience of faith.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

 

[Ralph-]

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

We all know works do not justify. Works are required for another reason.

Saved people have works, or else they're not really saved. That's why works are required. Even your 'once saved always saved' doctrine says you have to have works or else you were never saved to begin with. That makes works required to be saved, or else you were never saved to begin with.

So stop arguing with us when we say you have to have works to be saved. We agree with the part of your once saved always saved doctrine that says a person has to have works, and never cease to have works, or else they are not born again.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 5:29, "And Kĕpha and the other emissaries answering, said, “We have to obey YHWH rather than men.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan/John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of YHWH: When we love YHWH by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of YHWH: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

Ephesians 2:8-10
[FONT=&quot]8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


How does believing what the bible says equate to believing that grace is a license to sin??[/FONT]

It doesn't.....but for the plenteous in number that bkast of works.....they need moot arguments and false allegations to make their invalid, non-biblical points.....

 

[dcontroversal]

That's what I thought.

Obviously not.........and how doea deceit make your working for case....?