Not By Works

[Ralph-]

I got tired of the incessant I save myself crapola because I have 72652636838474 works that prove it...

You don't seem to know that's 'once saved always saved' doctrine 101. You have to have works and have them to the very end or you were never saved to begin with. You've been arguing against once saved always saved doctrine and you don't even know it.

Or are you of this other new once saved always doctrine that says you do not need to have works to be saved. No, can't be that. You argued vehemently that you were not saying that.

So which are you? Are you of the group that says you have to have works or you were never saved to begin with, or, of the group that says you don't have to have works to be saved because salvation is not by works? If you're of the first group you need to stop arguing with us and calling us works salvationist because you also believe that works are necessary to be saved or else you show you were never born again. And if you're of the second group then you believe that grace is a license to sin. Take your pick and let us know.

No insults and beratings, please. Just let us know which one you are.

 

[Ralph-]

Now you have sunk to lying like your working for buddies. ...try again pal.....and go back and read with understanding my statement was by Paul concerning Paul being blameless concerning the law.....man you guys push works and by your works prove that you are not living what you spew!

How does one conclude that the person who says he is the chief of sinners also kept the law?

 

[Grandpa]

You don't seem to know that's 'once saved always saved' doctrine 101. You have to have works and have them to the very end or you were never saved to begin with. You've been arguing against once saved always saved doctrine and you don't even know it.

Or are you of this other new once saved always doctrine that says you do not need to have works to be saved. No, can't be that. You argued vehemently that you were not saying that.

So which are you? Are you of the group that says you have to have works or you were never saved to begin with, or, of the group that says you don't have to have works to be saved because salvation is not by works? If you're of the first group you need to stop arguing with us and calling us works salvationist because you also believe that works are necessary to be saved or else you show you were never born again. And if you're of the second group then you believe that grace is a license to sin. Take your pick and let us know.

No insults and beratings, please. Just let us know which one you are.

Ephesians 2:8-10
[FONT=&quot]8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


How does believing what the bible says equate to believing that grace is a license to sin??[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

How does one conclude that the person who says he is the chief of sinners also kept the law?

Paul kept the law according to the flesh and his carnal understanding.

Just like the legalists and workers of today.

But Paul also understood that this kind of "obedience" wasn't nearly what is required for real obedience.

Philippians 3:6-9
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Studyman]

Now you have sunk to lying like your working for buddies. ...try again pal.....and go back and read with understanding my statement was by Paul concerning Paul being blameless concerning the law.....man you guys push works and by your works prove that you are not living what you spew!

That's what I thought.

 

[Studyman]

Thanks for your reply too...but I just don't think you are understand what I am saying here...

Yeah, they were hypocrites to God, but they did try to follow the "written" Law.

They didn't think they were doing anything wrong by murdering Steven...The Law included a death penalty for various crimes...Outwardly they probably thought they were upholding the Law...To them Stephen was committing idolatry and teaching against the Law of God. So to them they thought it was just to kill him...by the Law.

As for the rest of it, I'm not going against what Jesus said...because yes they did add to the Law like I've been saying all along...that's putting more on someone than needed...they not only followed the Law as written but added traditions of men...Just like some churches and people still do today...example the Bible says for a women not to wear anything pertaining to a man and you got some people trying to make sure that a woman can follow this by saying that a woman should wear a dress or skirt. Now that is not what the word of God says that is a tradition of man...but I'm sure people started doing it just trying to make sure that they were following what the Bible said...but now they judge any and all who don't dress exactly like them, act like them, talk like them...etc.


But really though, I can't seem to explain to you what I am saying...I do understand what you are saying. I just don't know how to get you to understand what I am saying.

I've enjoyed talking to you, but I guess we are just going to have to leave it where it's at for now...

God bless you.

Yes, it is a touchy subject, I understand the implications perfectly. I am just raising the question and posting the many scriptures that teach they had created their own Laws they called the Law of Moses, and had rejected, as prophesied, the Instructions of God.

It is an interesting point you made about the Pharisees believing they were following God by murdering the Prophets, and Jesus and Stephen, bringing false accusers against Paul to knowingly tell lies about him, etc..

I have no doubt they believed in the image of God they created, and the Laws they created. People can believe all manner of things, and everyone believes they are right. Even Jesus believed He was right. But regarding murdering folks, weren't they supposed to take Stephen outside the camp before stoning Him to death? And what Laws were they following regarding him? Did he say something that wasn't true? Do you believe God's Laws allowed them to murder people without due process, witnesses, some kind of hearing? I think you would be well served to brush up on your understanding of what Jesus commanded in the Old Testament regarding executing people. You will find they didn't follow any guidance or instructions from God as it pertains to murdering the Prophets and Stephen and Jesus.

John 9:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

You will find no Law from God that condemns Jesus or Stephen to death. You might be able to isolate one sentence and twist it as support, but the Old Testament doesn't condone by law any of the treatment the Pharisees handed out to the Prophets, or Stephen or Jesus.

To be fair, Jesus didn't say the Pharisees added to His Commandments. He said they "Taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men" They rejected the "weightier matters of His Law", and they placed burdens on the necks of His People, and Moses gave them the Law, yet they didn't keep it like Stephen said.

How this can be construed into trying to earn salvation by keeping the Letter of the Law is troubling to me. But there are "MANY" who come in Christ's name, who believe just that.

Thanks for your thoughtful replies and your kind manner. I truly hope you might look into these questions, but if not, I appreciate the discussion anyway.

I guess we will just leave it at that.

You have a great day

 

[Studyman]

Paul kept the law according to the flesh and his carnal understanding.

Just like the legalists and workers of today.

But Paul also understood that this kind of "obedience" wasn't nearly what is required for real obedience.

Philippians 3:6-9
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul was a Pharisee, a Pharisees of Pharisees. they had created their own Law. He followed the "traditions of his fathers" Blameless".

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (Exactly what Law of God did the Pharisees follow "blameless" that instructed them to murder the prophets?)
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not from God as you preach)

The Commandments of men that the Pharisees created, according to my Savior, included their own version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" which was used to "cleanse" people of their sins.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

As a Pharisee he knew He had been serving satan and not God. Did he call himself a "Believer", an Israelite? No, as touching the Law he wasn't an believer or an Israelite, he was a Pharisee who Jesus had exposed over and over as NOT FOLLIOWING GOD's Laws.

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, ( being cleansed by the carnal Priesthood) blameless.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, (Not God's Laws, but the Law of the Pharisee Jesus said placed burdens on the necks of His people.)but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God's instructions are Righteous, the Pharisees were servants of satan. It is a falsehood to preach the Pharisees, including Paul, were following God's Laws for Salvation.

You can't take a couple of sentences from the Bible and twist them to make Jesus out to be a liar and made void all the rest of the Bible.

Well, you can, but it is not truth.

 

[gb9]

Paul was a Pharisee, a Pharisees of Pharisees. they had created their own Law. He followed the "traditions of his fathers" Blameless".

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (Exactly what Law of God did the Pharisees follow "blameless" that instructed them to murder the prophets?)
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not from God as you preach)

The Commandments of men that the Pharisees created, according to my Savior, included their own version of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" which was used to "cleanse" people of their sins.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

As a Pharisee he knew He had been serving satan and not God. Did he call himself a "Believer", an Israelite? No, as touching the Law he wasn't an believer or an Israelite, he was a Pharisee who Jesus had exposed over and over as NOT FOLLIOWING GOD's Laws.

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, ( being cleansed by the carnal Priesthood) blameless.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, (Not God's Laws, but the Law of the Pharisee Jesus said placed burdens on the necks of His people.)but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God's instructions are Righteous, the Pharisees were servants of satan. It is a falsehood to preach the Pharisees, including Paul, were following God's Laws for Salvation.

You can't take a couple of sentences from the Bible and twist them to make Jesus out to be a liar and made void all the rest of the Bible.

Well, you can, but it is not truth.

yes, one cannot take a part of the Bible and twist it to attempt to make non-truth appear to be true. like you take Acts 15, and try ( fail ) to twist it into gentiles being placed under the law, when the truth is it is about gentiles NOT being under the Law of Moses.

like you take Romans 1 and try ( fail ) to twist that to " the Old Testament is the Gospel of Christ " ( guess you do not know that " in" and "through " do not mean " is ")

I could go on, but readers will get the point.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Paul kept the law according to the flesh and his carnal understanding.

Just like the legalists and workers of today.

But Paul also understood that this kind of "obedience" wasn't nearly what is required for real obedience.

Philippians 3:6-9
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

yup...

well said

 

[ruach]

Are you calling saving grace unmerited, and manifold grace, empowerment of Holy Spirit? I've never heard anyone separate them, though OT only had unmerited.

1 Peter 4:10-manifold grace of God, empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ralph-]

Paul kept the law according to the flesh and his carnal understanding.

...which is not keeping the law.


If the Pharisees had kept the law Jesus would have praised them, much like he did Nathanael, not condemned to hell.

"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”"-John 1:47

To try to put the Pharisees in the same league as Nathanael is Biblically impossible.

"even though I (Paul) was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"-1 Timothy 1:13

 

[Ralph-]

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


How does believing what the bible says equate to believing that grace is a license to sin??

Once saved always saved belief says that the person who does not show he is saved and show it to the very end was never really saved to begin with. That makes works required to be saved or else you're not saved. Apparently, those who have been bashing us as 'works salvationists' did not know that was right in their own once saved always saved doctrine.

And then there's this new once saved always doctrine that says it doesn't matter at all what you do after you believe, you do not have to have any works, and you can even go back to unbelief, and you will still be saved, as long as you believed in the beginning. THAT is the belief that makes grace a license to sin.

So I'm asking not only decontroversial, but everyone else here who believes 'once saved always saved' which once saved always saved they are. If you say the first one THEN WHY YOU BEATING UP ON US??? We agree with you that works are required or else you are not born again. And if you say the second one then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

So which one are you? This is to all you who have been calling us names and beating up on us for agreeing with your once saved always saved doctrine and saying you have to have works or you are not saved.

 

[tourist]

Once saved always saved belief says that the person who does not show he is saved and show it to the very end was never really saved to begin with. That makes works required to be saved or else you're not saved. Apparently, those who have been bashing us as 'works salvationists' did not know that was right in their own once saved always saved doctrine.

And then there's this new once saved always doctrine that says it doesn't matter at all what you do after you believe, you do not have to have any works, and you can even go back to unbelief, and you will still be saved, as long as you believed in the beginning. THAT is the belief that makes grace a license to sin.

So I'm asking not only decontroversial, but everyone else here who believes 'once saved always saved' which once saved always saved they are. If you say the first one THEN WHY YOU BEATING UP ON US??? We agree with you that works are required or else you are not born again. And if you say the second one then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

So which one are you? This is to all you who have been calling us names and beating up on us for agreeing with your once saved always saved doctrine and saying you have to have works or you are not saved.

Any good works performed are a manifestation of being saved but the works in themselves do not save.

 

[stillness]

How does one conclude that the person who says he is the chief of sinners also kept the law?

Keeping the law kills us by pride of achievement: thinking we are better than others is contrary to God. Division is the confused language of the carnal mind desiring to be in charge:
The beginning of prayer is work until cough up in the wind of the Spirit: like an eagle exerting strength to reach the updraft.
Thee Grace of God is the work of God: renewed strength to reach the wind of the Spirit, as labour to enter into His rest. it's enough for the carnal mind to be dived over work that is no longer work: saying the same thing differently ends when we agree with God. "Lean not on your own understanding but trust in the Lord." The work of God that we agree with and work together with Him, the truth be known arguing about the same thing said differently, for lack of Love: not having reached the updraft: not doing the work, "The work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent." To believe is to do the work of Love, "For the Grace of God has appeared to all men, that denying ungodliness and worldly lust we should live godly, righteously and soberly in this present world." This is not yet achieved and can be lost, Just like an eagle losing direction of the updraft, distracted by a prey. "You have left your first Love, be zealous therefore and repent." Of the 7 churches in revelations even Philadelphia the only one the Lord did not reprove: as they were walking in Love, He said to them, those who overcome will rule with Him, implying they were not yet mature in Love. Because protestant theology is small eternal security does not make sense, "Some will be saved but as through fire but will lose their reward." Protestant refused to believe believers who did not overcome the world will be released from hell after the thousand year reign, to be judged according to their works.
Now we know in part: when these parts cause division we become carnal, this is from leaning on our u understanding. Do I believe in eternal security? Yes, do I believe in the work of God? Yes, it frees me from having to prove myself to be anything when without Love I am nothing.

 

[Studyman]

yes, one cannot take a part of the Bible and twist it to attempt to make non-truth appear to be true. like you take Acts 15, and try ( fail ) to twist it into gentiles being placed under the law, when the truth is it is about gentiles NOT being under the Law of Moses.

like you take Romans 1 and try ( fail ) to twist that to " the Old Testament is the Gospel of Christ " ( guess you do not know that " in" and "through " do not mean " is ")

I could go on, but readers will get the point.

yes, those interested in trying to know God instead of just furthing ancient religious traditions will read the Post and know exactly what the point is. But those who simply use the Parts is the Bible they can twist to justify their disobedient lifestyle will not get the point. Finally something we can agree on.

 

[stonesoffire]

1 Peter 4:10-manifold grace of God, empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you ruach. Manifold means various aspects of His nature. A phrase unfamiliar to me. I can't recall any teaching on this.

But, I still would not separate it from unmerited for the Hebrew shows the picture of God Himself bending towards man in kindness. Same as giving His most prized possession to us freely.

 

[stonesoffire]

What about food, clothing or shelter? Can we ask for donations?


Something about works some elswhere asked about.
They mentioned something Yeshua (jesus) himself said about works.

John 14:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I would think a disaster would be allowed, but most cities have programs in them to care for the homeless, and many churches operate in this too.

 

[MattforJesus]

Some people do not understand that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation because our righteousness is as filthy rags,and our works do not measure up,for we are not sinless,so we have to have a Savior.

But once we are saved the situation changes to that of being spiritual,and we have the same power as Christ to be Christlike,so then the responsibility falls on us to want to do what is right,abstain from sin by the Spirit,and love people,and help them with their needs,for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do what is right,and if they do not do what is right they are in the same situation of not being saved.

But they want to drag faith alone,and not saved by works,throughout their walk with God when it is that situation when we confess Christ for we have not received the Spirit yet,but when we receive the Spirit we are spiritual and no longer fleshy,and if they do not do what is right then they are not spiritual.

They try to drag when Paul was talking when we were fleshy that nothing we can do can earn is salvation throughout their walk with God,and ignore when Paul said the same things as James after we receive the Spirit that faith without works is dead,for he said if he does not have works of love he is nothing,and people that do not help people with their needs,and love them,have erred from the faith.

They do not understand when Paul is speaking from the flesh,or the Spirit,but love when he speaks according to the flesh believing that is how it is throughout their walk with God,and then ignoring when he speaks according to the Spirit saying the same thing as James which is how it is supposed to be throughout their walk with God.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[stonesoffire]

Once saved always saved belief says that the person who does not show he is saved and show it to the very end was never really saved to begin with. That makes works required to be saved or else you're not saved. Apparently, those who have been bashing us as 'works salvationists' did not know that was right in their own once saved always saved doctrine.

And then there's this new once saved always doctrine that says it doesn't matter at all what you do after you believe, you do not have to have any works, and you can even go back to unbelief, and you will still be saved, as long as you believed in the beginning. THAT is the belief that makes grace a license to sin.

So I'm asking not only decontroversial, but everyone else here who believes 'once saved always saved' which once saved always saved they are. If you say the first one THEN WHY YOU BEATING UP ON US??? We agree with you that works are required or else you are not born again. And if you say the second one then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

So which one are you? This is to all you who have been calling us names and beating up on us for agreeing with your once saved always saved doctrine and saying you have to have works or you are not saved.

I'm one who knows, that..

And those whom He predestined, these also He called; and whom He called, these also He justified; and whom He justified, these also He glorified. Romans 8:30

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

I don't base my hope on my faith, but on The Blood sacrifice of Jesus, for I (ego) am dead. Yet, here I still live, yet not I but Christ lives in me, that this life I now live, I live by the faith of Jesus Christ who loves me greatly. And gave His life for me.

Yet too for all mankind. Does He love the wicked? I would say yes, for He asked Father to forgive them.

We all have a ministry to reconcile each to this gospel truth of His great salvation, His great love.

and this is just the foundation.

 

[stonesoffire]

Keeping the law kills us by pride of achievement: thinking we are better than others is contrary to God. Division is the confused language of the carnal mind desiring to be in charge:
The beginning of prayer is work until cough up in the wind of the Spirit: like an eagle exerting strength to reach the updraft.
Thee Grace of God is the work of God: renewed strength to reach the wind of the Spirit, as labour to enter into His rest. it's enough for the carnal mind to be dived over work that is no longer work: saying the same thing differently ends when we agree with God. "Lean not on your own understanding but trust in the Lord." The work of God that we agree with and work together with Him, the truth be known arguing about the same thing said differently, for lack of Love: not having reached the updraft: not doing the work, "The work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent." To believe is to do the work of Love, "For the Grace of God has appeared to all men, that denying ungodliness and worldly lust we should live godly, righteously and soberly in this present world." This is not yet achieved and can be lost, Just like an eagle losing direction of the updraft, distracted by a prey. "You have left your first Love, be zealous therefore and repent." Of the 7 churches in revelations even Philadelphia the only one the Lord did not reprove: as they were walking in Love, He said to them, those who overcome will rule with Him, implying they were not yet mature in Love. Because protestant theology is small eternal security does not make sense, "Some will be saved but as through fire but will lose their reward." Protestant refused to believe believers who did not overcome the world will be released from hell after the thousand year reign, to be judged according to their works.
Now we know in part: when these parts cause division we become carnal, this is from leaning on our u understanding. Do I believe in eternal security? Yes, do I believe in the work of God? Yes, it frees me from having to prove myself to be anything when without Love I am nothing.

Am in agreement with all, but never heard the words of the ones who aren't overcomers. Can't agree here. But enjoyed the post.