Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

A glitch in the matrix.

I saw your post started to respond then it was no longer.

Was it good? I wondered what happened? Lol!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are twins, albeit that he is 2 years older than me

You needed to cook for 2 more years. Make sure you were perfect

 

[BillG]

You needed to cook for 2 more years. Make sure you were perfect

In all my ways

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are you saying that everyone is going to be saved???? Because we know that it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Also it sates in 1 Tim.2:3-4

3.This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So surely if your saying that it is Jesus' faith that saves us... then everyone will be saved, right....Because we know Jesus has definitely got enough faith to make that happen...

But by reading the rest of the scripture we know that not all will be saved... It is only "whosoever believes in HIM" John 3:16

Grace is the gift of God...God calls us and draws us to his Son but we have to choose to believe and put our faith in him to obtain his gift of GRACE.

There is just so much wrong with this “jesus’ faith” stuff it is hard to count the number of ways, yes, this is another good one!

 

[BillG]

Was it good? I wondered what happened? Lol!!

Maybe I'm the glitch

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Happy Belated cake day tourist!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe I'm the glitch

A man who cooks for 2 years cant be a glitch!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is the best Italian food I have ever had other than some ravioli and red sauce that an old lady I knew, she made from scratch over 2 days......

She scratched for two days whilst she fixed it?

 

[davida]

The Bible says we shall be known by our love to one another, so what's the deal with those quotes??????

Is that showing the love of God toward His children?

Ever said anything you regretted?I

Ever not phrase something correctly?

Ever have anyone take something you said outta context????

 

[Budman]

I'll take that as a yes. Galatians 5:21 does describe you. That means you're not going to inherit the kingdom. That's what it says.

Born again people sin but they don't 'live in' sin. If you want to argue that there is no difference between the believer and the unbeliever when it comes to sin, except that you're saved and they're not, then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

You made the distinction in sin in your comment about 'living like the devil'. But you insist there is no difference between the sin of the unbeliever and the believer. Galatians 5:21 is living like the devil. If you're doing that, you are not saved. You will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.

Ralph, let me ask you; When one is saved, does God remove our free will from us and create robots? Do we still retain the ability to say "no" to God?

You are advocating that when one is saved, that person will live a certain way - no matter what. Have you every turned down a good work that God has placed before you to do?

You, who would condemn Paul, for he said "I am the chief of sinners".

Not was - am. And he said this at least 20 years after his conversion.

But to you, that's evidence enough that Paul was never saved to begin with, and will not inherit the kingdom.

We still possess the free will to choose not live as God would have us to live. We will be chastened, as a father would chasten a wayward child, but we will never stop being His child. Once we are in the Family of God, we can never be disowned.

And please stop avoiding this verse, but give your interpretation:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

 

[Ralph-]

The Bible says we shall be known by our love to one another

Are you sure?
Many are arguing in this thread that John 13:35 is not true.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

And that you're being judgmental and works focused if you say it is true.

 

[Ralph-]

You, who would condemn Paul, for he said "I am the chief of sinners".

Not was - am. And he said this at least 20 years after his conversion.

But to you, that's evidence enough that Paul was never saved to begin with, and will not inherit the kingdom.

I already showed you that if Paul meant he was living in sin per Galatians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Ephesians 5:5 then he would be condemning himself as being one who would 'not inherit the kingdom of God'. So obviously you can not interpret the passage about him being chief of sinners to mean he is living in sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God. He would not say that about himself. He would be contradicting his own doctrine. (As an side, he had Christians put to death, that's what he's talking about.)

Born again people don't 'live in' sin. They sin but they do not live in it as a matter of lifestyle like unbelievers do. If a person is doing that, they are not born again. Those made righteous by faith in Christ grow up in righteous living. While those who are not righteous in Christ, not only do not change, they get worse-2 Timothy 3:13. They show by their behavior that they do not know God.

And please stop avoiding this verse, but give your interpretation:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

I did already.

The child born of God does not 'live in' sin. Even you made the distinction between sinning after being born again and 'living in sin' when you said that believers should not 'live like the devil'. So obviously even you see the difference. The child of God can not live like the devil or he is showing himself to be a child of the devil, not a child of God growing up and away from the slavery of sin. Slaves do not inherit the kingdom. Only the sons do.

If someone sees themselves in the mirror of Galatians 5:21 one of three things is going to happen. They will see the truth about themselves and be driven to Christ for mercy and will receive the power to change. That's called the gospel, by the way. Or, they will see the truth about themselves and try real hard to not be like that anymore. Or, what we're seeing in the church today, they will think it's okay to be that way as long as you believe, and God will take care of the rest.

Which one is you? Which one is me? We all have to examine ourselves to see which we are.

 

[Chester]

Yet James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." So faith in "faith only" here is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. This is what works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp. *Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Yet grace is God's part and faith is our part. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

To be specific, we are saved through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (by trusting in Christ alone for salvation and not in works). Saved through faith, not works. Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

We are either saved through faith in Christ alone or through faith in Christ + works. I believe that we are saved through faith in Christ alone. Authentic faith in Christ is not a dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" because it's a living faith, but nonetheless, we are saved through faith, not works.

Thanks, Mailmandan, you took the time to answer my points carefully.

And you didn't just spout out canned answers, but looked carefully and meaningfully at what I said (See post 50138). Your answer is clear, Biblical, and I think I agree almost completely with it.

You say it is "faith in Christ alone": I like that much better than saying "faith alone". If I say it in a shortened form I like to say that we are "saved by grace through faith". I think that you and some others here are trying to make sure no one adds any sort of works to the faith. I care deeply about that, but I also care that we don't have people make a dead profession of faith that is really no faith at all (and thinking they are really saved).

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks, Mailmandan, you took the time to answer my points carefully.

And you didn't just spout out canned answers, but looked carefully and meaningfully at what I said (See post 50138). Your answer is clear, Biblical, and I think I agree almost completely with it.

You say it is "faith in Christ alone": I like that much better than saying "faith alone". If I say it in a shortened form I like to say that we are "saved by grace through faith". I think that you and some others here are trying to make sure no one adds any sort of works to the faith. I care deeply about that, but I also care that we don't have people make a dead profession of faith that is really no faith at all (and thinking they are really saved).

Yes, that is what James is referencing in James 2:14. "...can that faith save him?" James is pointing to mental assent, not genuine faith.

 

[Endoscopy]

Think People. If jesus faith was IMPUTED to me, I would

1. Be perfect
2. never sin again
3. Never lack faith (because I now have his faith which was proven to be perfect)
4. Would not need to grow.
5. Would not need to learn to trust the father, I have Jesus faith, which means I trust God as much as he does.

again, THINK.

You need to understand the word impute from the Christian perspective.

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language
(1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty;
(2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and
(3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

 

[preacher4truth]

Are you sure?
Many are arguing in this thread that John 13:35 is not true.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

And that you're being judgmental and works focused if you say it is true.

The thing that is really going on is your incessant bearing of false witness against others on this forum.

You've done it yet again above.

Why have you exempted yourself from the the Biblical "practicing sin means not inheriting the kingdom" warning? Is that just written to others, but isn't applicable to you and your well known pattern of behavior?

Romans 2:3? It's also for others but not you, correct?

 

[Chester]

faith minus works is faith alone.

Grace means it is a gift, but God will not make us take it, or force it on us, he wants us to take it, and we will only take it if we have faith,.

Romans 4 says the same thing

Forget the "minus works" - it was never in the equation and has never saved anyone.

It is by God grace working in my heart so that I can respond through faith in Him.

But I can never be saved by a "faith alone" that does not have the grace of God involved.

To me saying "faith alone" means that salvation is completely dependent on my choice and action. God stands stoically aside watching to see how I respond. If I don't respond in faith, He spits me out in His anger. (Now I know very well that picture is not correct and those of you pushing "faith alone" don't mean it that way, but that is the picture some others of us have of "faith alone")

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to understand the word impute from the Christian perspective.

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language
(1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty;
(2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and
(3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

The word impute means to charge to ones account, it is actually a bank term, If we owe a debt, someone can impute the debt we owe to the bank, and our payment will be paid in full. Ie, to reckon to ones account

Our sin is reckoned to Christ on the cross. He is punished for our sin
His righteousness is reckoned to our account (we are forgiven all sin because Christ paid for them all, past present and future)

either way, christ’s Faith is not imputed to me. His righteousness is!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Forget the "minus works" - it was never in the equation and has never saved anyone.

It is by God grace working in my heart so that I can respond through faith in Him.

But I can never be saved by a "faith alone" that does not have the grace of God involved.

To me saying "faith alone" means that salvation is completely dependent on my choice and action. God stands stoically aside watching to see how I respond. If I don't respond in faith, He spits me out in His anger. (Now I know very well that picture is not correct and those of you pushing "faith alone" don't mean it that way, but that is the picture some others of us have of "faith alone")

if there is no grace, there is no MEANS of faith. (Except for faith in self which would include your works offered as payment for sin)

Your taking things to literally, No one is going to be confused about faith apart from Grace,

 

[Chester]

And therein lies the problem; you're looking for "a text", a pretext or proof-verse to prove this doctrine and are asking others to do so simply because you believe it doesn't exist, so you're question begging.

This is a fallacy and weak hermeneutic as there are some biblical doctrines that cannot be solidly proven with one stand alone verse. Triune God for example.

That said the text you are providing in James 2:14 does in fact prove Sola Fide in its context, that and add in some 2 Timothy 2:15 principle as well for further insight.

You need to move beyond your "verse-ologist" mentality and I hope you will my brother.

Quite interesting idea - and I would say there is some truth to what you say, but there is also very great danger in what you say.

If we begin with an idea, or theology, or pet doctrine that we believe and then go to find it in the Bible, we can always piece Scriptures together to prove our point.

I refuse to support doctrine that is not clearly supported by Scripture verses understood correctly in context.

The Sola Fide (faith alone) doctrine? I fully support the thrust of the doctrine: we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ completely apart from works. But I do not say we are saved by "faith alone" because the Bible does not say that anywhere. In fact, it clearly says in Ephesians 2 that we are saved by grace through faith.

(See also post 50377)