Not By Works
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Ralph, let me ask you; When one is saved, does God remove our free will from us and create robots? Do we still retain the ability to say "no" to God?
You are advocating that when one is saved, that person will live a certain way - no matter what. Have you every turned down a good work that God has placed before you to do?
You, who would condemn Paul, for he said "I am the chief of sinners".
Not was - am. And he said this at least 20 years after his conversion.
But to you, that's evidence enough that Paul was never saved to begin with, and will not inherit the kingdom.
We still possess the free will to choose not live as God would have us to live. We will be chastened, as a father would chasten a wayward child, but we will never stop being His child. Once we are in the Family of God, we can never be disowned.
And please stop avoiding this verse, but give your interpretation:
"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
You are advocating that when one is saved, that person will live a certain way - no matter what. Have you every turned down a good work that God has placed before you to do?
You, who would condemn Paul, for he said "I am the chief of sinners".
Not was - am. And he said this at least 20 years after his conversion.
But to you, that's evidence enough that Paul was never saved to begin with, and will not inherit the kingdom.
We still possess the free will to choose not live as God would have us to live. We will be chastened, as a father would chasten a wayward child, but we will never stop being His child. Once we are in the Family of God, we can never be disowned.
And please stop avoiding this verse, but give your interpretation:
"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
R
I already showed you that if Paul meant he was living in sin per Galatians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Ephesians 5:5 then he would be condemning himself as being one who would 'not inherit the kingdom of God'. So obviously you can not interpret the passage about him being chief of sinners to mean he is living in sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God. He would not say that about himself. He would be contradicting his own doctrine. (As an side, he had Christians put to death, that's what he's talking about.)
Born again people don't 'live in' sin. They sin but they do not live in it as a matter of lifestyle like unbelievers do. If a person is doing that, they are not born again. Those made righteous by faith in Christ grow up in righteous living. While those who are not righteous in Christ, not only do not change, they get worse-2 Timothy 3:13. They show by their behavior that they do not know God.
I did already.
The child born of God does not 'live in' sin. Even you made the distinction between sinning after being born again and 'living in sin' when you said that believers should not 'live like the devil'. So obviously even you see the difference. The child of God can not live like the devil or he is showing himself to be a child of the devil, not a child of God growing up and away from the slavery of sin. Slaves do not inherit the kingdom. Only the sons do.
If someone sees themselves in the mirror of Galatians 5:21 one of three things is going to happen. They will see the truth about themselves and be driven to Christ for mercy and will receive the power to change. That's called the gospel, by the way. Or, they will see the truth about themselves and try real hard to not be like that anymore. Or, what we're seeing in the church today, they will think it's okay to be that way as long as you believe, and God will take care of the rest.
Which one is you? Which one is me? We all have to examine ourselves to see which we are.
Born again people don't 'live in' sin. They sin but they do not live in it as a matter of lifestyle like unbelievers do. If a person is doing that, they are not born again. Those made righteous by faith in Christ grow up in righteous living. While those who are not righteous in Christ, not only do not change, they get worse-2 Timothy 3:13. They show by their behavior that they do not know God.
I did already.
The child born of God does not 'live in' sin. Even you made the distinction between sinning after being born again and 'living in sin' when you said that believers should not 'live like the devil'. So obviously even you see the difference. The child of God can not live like the devil or he is showing himself to be a child of the devil, not a child of God growing up and away from the slavery of sin. Slaves do not inherit the kingdom. Only the sons do.
If someone sees themselves in the mirror of Galatians 5:21 one of three things is going to happen. They will see the truth about themselves and be driven to Christ for mercy and will receive the power to change. That's called the gospel, by the way. Or, they will see the truth about themselves and try real hard to not be like that anymore. Or, what we're seeing in the church today, they will think it's okay to be that way as long as you believe, and God will take care of the rest.
Which one is you? Which one is me? We all have to examine ourselves to see which we are.
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Thanks, Mailmandan, you took the time to answer my points carefully.
And you didn't just spout out canned answers, but looked carefully and meaningfully at what I said (See post 50138). Your answer is clear, Biblical, and I think I agree almost completely with it.
You say it is "faith in Christ alone": I like that much better than saying "faith alone". If I say it in a shortened form I like to say that we are "saved by grace through faith". I think that you and some others here are trying to make sure no one adds any sort of works to the faith. I care deeply about that, but I also care that we don't have people make a dead profession of faith that is really no faith at all (and thinking they are really saved).
And you didn't just spout out canned answers, but looked carefully and meaningfully at what I said (See post 50138). Your answer is clear, Biblical, and I think I agree almost completely with it.
You say it is "faith in Christ alone": I like that much better than saying "faith alone". If I say it in a shortened form I like to say that we are "saved by grace through faith". I think that you and some others here are trying to make sure no one adds any sort of works to the faith. I care deeply about that, but I also care that we don't have people make a dead profession of faith that is really no faith at all (and thinking they are really saved).
You need to understand the word impute from the Christian perspective.
Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language
(1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty;
(2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and
(3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).
Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language
(1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty;
(2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and
(3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).
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The thing that is really going on is your incessant bearing of false witness against others on this forum.
You've done it yet again above.
Why have you exempted yourself from the the Biblical "practicing sin means not inheriting the kingdom" warning? Is that just written to others, but isn't applicable to you and your well known pattern of behavior?
Romans 2:3? It's also for others but not you, correct?
You've done it yet again above.
Why have you exempted yourself from the the Biblical "practicing sin means not inheriting the kingdom" warning? Is that just written to others, but isn't applicable to you and your well known pattern of behavior?
Romans 2:3? It's also for others but not you, correct?
Forget the "minus works" - it was never in the equation and has never saved anyone.
It is by God grace working in my heart so that I can respond through faith in Him.
But I can never be saved by a "faith alone" that does not have the grace of God involved.
To me saying "faith alone" means that salvation is completely dependent on my choice and action. God stands stoically aside watching to see how I respond. If I don't respond in faith, He spits me out in His anger. (Now I know very well that picture is not correct and those of you pushing "faith alone" don't mean it that way, but that is the picture some others of us have of "faith alone")
It is by God grace working in my heart so that I can respond through faith in Him.
But I can never be saved by a "faith alone" that does not have the grace of God involved.
To me saying "faith alone" means that salvation is completely dependent on my choice and action. God stands stoically aside watching to see how I respond. If I don't respond in faith, He spits me out in His anger. (Now I know very well that picture is not correct and those of you pushing "faith alone" don't mean it that way, but that is the picture some others of us have of "faith alone")
E
The word impute means to charge to ones account, it is actually a bank term, If we owe a debt, someone can impute the debt we owe to the bank, and our payment will be paid in full. Ie, to reckon to ones account
Our sin is reckoned to Christ on the cross. He is punished for our sin
His righteousness is reckoned to our account (we are forgiven all sin because Christ paid for them all, past present and future)
either way, christ’s Faith is not imputed to me. His righteousness is!
Quite interesting idea - and I would say there is some truth to what you say, but there is also very great danger in what you say.
If we begin with an idea, or theology, or pet doctrine that we believe and then go to find it in the Bible, we can always piece Scriptures together to prove our point.
I refuse to support doctrine that is not clearly supported by Scripture verses understood correctly in context.
The Sola Fide (faith alone) doctrine? I fully support the thrust of the doctrine: we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ completely apart from works. But I do not say we are saved by "faith alone" because the Bible does not say that anywhere. In fact, it clearly says in Ephesians 2 that we are saved by grace through faith.
(See also post 50377)
If we begin with an idea, or theology, or pet doctrine that we believe and then go to find it in the Bible, we can always piece Scriptures together to prove our point.
I refuse to support doctrine that is not clearly supported by Scripture verses understood correctly in context.
The Sola Fide (faith alone) doctrine? I fully support the thrust of the doctrine: we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ completely apart from works. But I do not say we are saved by "faith alone" because the Bible does not say that anywhere. In fact, it clearly says in Ephesians 2 that we are saved by grace through faith.
(See also post 50377)