Not By Works

[posthuman]

So you are saying it. You do not have to have works of the Spirit when Jesus comes back.

if they belong to the Spirit who else can claim any ownership of them?

 

[dcontroversal]

The only way once saved always saved can matter when Jesus comes back is you can live in your old unconverted life and you will still be saved. But that contradicts what you have said in other posts that the believer WILL have works. Make up your mind already. Which is it? It can't be both.

You must be as dense as lead.....here read again.....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Maybe you should read what I write without blinders on and be honest with what I have said....your whole post drips with things I have not said nor implied.......the fact that you push a faith/works psuedo blend blinds you to the actual truth that believers will have either works of gold, silver and precious stones or works of wood, hay and stubble or a combo of both.....at the end of the day ALL SAVED have done the WORK of the Heavenly Father and are secure in Christ

 

[Mercy4u]

You missed it by a mile.

Living in your old life is you still living in your old life....adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, impurity, lust, greed, worldliness.

The argument is not that the point of salvation is to clean up the old life. The argument is the cleaned up life is the result of being saved. No cleanup-no salvation has occured. You will be rejected when Jesus returns. It doesn't matter if you were saved and lost it, or if you were never saved to begin with. Either way if you're in your old life when Jesus comes back, you're toast.

Living in our old life is trying to clean it up also. Try to do many great deeds in His name.

We don't have any here that straight up say, " Live like hell, live in the old man/life."

But we have many, MANY who say, " Do great deeds in His name, clean up your act, imitate Christ." And this is what He said to them...

Matt 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

 

[Ralph-]

if salvation is real, you can die in the flesh never having achieved any degree of physical mastery over the sin in it at all, and your soul may yet be alive to God by the spirit, because the sin in the flesh is conquered by the Messiah on the cross. but God "who justifies the ungodly" and who "calls that which is not, as though it were" and who "appoints the times and seasons" is faithful.

is He faithful to the one who has no works?
is there truly such a thing as salvation, if He is not?

Only he who does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God-Matthew 7:21. Read the passage. He's talking about having FRUIT.

Trees that don't bear good fruit are cut down and thrown into the fire. Why bring once saved always saved into this except to claim that makes it so you CAN be a fruitless tree and not be thrown in the fire, making Jesus a liar. I mean, if you're going to join the once saved always saved argument and the 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back' arguments together that's what you're saying-fruitless trees will not be thrown in the fire. But Jesus said they will be. Who do we listen to?

 

[posthuman]

The only way once saved always saved can matter when Jesus comes back is you can live in your old unconverted life and you will still be saved. But that contradicts what you have said in other posts that the believer WILL have works. Make up your mind already. Which is it? It can't be both.

that's not a contradiction Ralph, as a little set theory will show:

let A & B be saved, and assume nothing can change that.
i.e. let S = the set of all saved people, then suppose A ⊆ S and B ⊆ S
and suppose also that {A, B} ⊈ [SUP]¬[/SUP]S

what you're trying to prove is that something can change that - that A or B can become 'not saved' - that either A or B is a member of [SUP]¬[/SUP]S, the 'not saved' set.

you said,

The only way once saved always saved can matter when Jesus comes back is you can live in your old unconverted life and you will still be saved.

so let x = 'good works'

suppose x ∈ A and x ∉ B
A has works, B does not.

Ralph, you said next:

But that contradicts what you have said in other posts that the believer WILL have works.

'that the believer will have works' means B = ∅
there is no one in set B. B is empty.

Ralph, you say that the fact B = ∅ contradicts the fact that B ⊆ S and that therefore {A, B} ⊈ [SUP]¬[/SUP]S is untrue.
that doesn't follow. it's not a true statement.

B being empty is not a contradiction of anything but B being non-empty. B ⊆ S isn't contradicted unless you can show some element in B is not in S. if B has no elements, you ain't got a single chance of that being true at all.

it's just the math

 

[Ralph-]

Living in our old life is trying to clean it up also. Try to do many great deeds in His name.

We don't have any here that straight up say, " Live like hell, live in the old man/life."

Right. They say it by saying 'you can not lose salvation', and 'you do not have to have works of the Spirit when Jesus comes back', all in the same breath. That's making it so grace is so you can live in your old life and still be saved. But grace was given to us so we can live in a new life not continue in our old one. That's the part of the gospel that is not being preached. We have lots of people who come to Christ because they want the get out of jail free card, but who don't come to Christ because they want a new life. They want their cake and eat it too. That's not the gospel, at least not the whole gospel.

But we have many, MANY who say, " Do great deeds in His name, clean up your act, imitate Christ." And this is what He said to them...

Matt 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

These people did not clean up their act. Jesus says they are lawless.

They are like many I know. Active in church ministries, programs, giving, church attendance, witnessing, supporting missionaries, leading Bible studies, even pastoring. But they live lawless lives of adultery, fornication, lust, impurity, drunkenness, greed, hate, and so on. They think they will be saved because they think they're aren't relying on their ministry works to gain access to the kingdom but ignoring the plain fact that they are lawless and will be rejected on that basis.

 

[Ralph-]

You must be as dense as lead.....here read again.....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Maybe you should read what I write without blinders on and be honest with what I have said....your whole post drips with things I have not said nor implied.......the fact that you push a faith/works psuedo blend blinds you to the actual truth that believers will have either works of gold, silver and precious stones or works of wood, hay and stubble or a combo of both.....at the end of the day ALL SAVED have done the WORK of the Heavenly Father and are secure in Christ

No, you're the dense one. Jesus said only those who do the will of the Father, that is, have fruit (that's what the context is) will enter the kingdom. But you say in posts that you do not have to do the will of the Father (bear fruit) and you will still enter the kingdom.

 

[posthuman]

You missed it by a mile.

Living in your old life is you still living in your old life....adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, impurity, lust, greed, worldliness.

The argument is not that the point of salvation is to clean up the old life. The argument is the cleaned up life is the result of being saved. No cleanup-no salvation has occured. You will be rejected when Jesus returns. It doesn't matter if you were saved and lost it, or if you were never saved to begin with. Either way if you're in your old life when Jesus comes back, you're toast.

you don't clean fish before you catch them. you catch the fish, then you clean them. the fisherman guts the fish; the fish don't gut themselves. you got a problem with a fish hasn't been gutted yet? your beef is with the fisherman, not the fish. so maybe we should praying, rather than arguing

 

[posthuman]

Only he who does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God-Matthew 7:21. Read the passage. He's talking about having FRUIT.

Trees that don't bear good fruit are cut down and thrown into the fire. Why bring once saved always saved into this except to claim that makes it so you CAN be a fruitless tree and not be thrown in the fire, making Jesus a liar. I mean, if you're going to join the once saved always saved argument and the 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back' arguments together that's what you're saying-fruitless trees will not be thrown in the fire. But Jesus said they will be. Who do we listen to?

the context of Matthew 7 is 'do not judge one another' because you will be judged the same way you think to judge, then 'treat one another the way you would want to be treated' then 'enter the narrow gate' then fruit - the fruit of those who appear to be good externally but are rotten on the inside.

the One who sets the seasons told another parable about a tree without fruit for whom someone interceded - for whom judgement was withheld and a new season set, on account of the intercessor who promised to nurture it. this He said in the context of 'repent or perish!' ((Luke 13))

 

[posthuman]

that's not a contradiction Ralph, as a little set theory will show:

let A & B be saved, and assume nothing can change that.
i.e. let S = the set of all saved people, then suppose A ⊆ S and B ⊆ S
and suppose also that {A, B} ⊈ [SUP]¬[/SUP]S

what you're trying to prove is that something can change that - that A or B can become 'not saved' - that either A or B is a member of [SUP]¬[/SUP]S, the 'not saved' set.

you said,



so let x = 'good works'

suppose x ∈ A and x ∉ B
A has works, B does not.

Ralph, you said next:



'that the believer will have works' means B = ∅
there is no one in set B. B is empty.

Ralph, you say that the fact B = ∅ contradicts the fact that B ⊆ S and that therefore {A, B} ⊈ [SUP]¬[/SUP]S is untrue.
that doesn't follow. it's not a true statement.

B being empty is not a contradiction of anything but B being non-empty. B ⊆ S isn't contradicted unless you can show some element in B is not in S. if B has no elements, you ain't got a single chance of that being true at all.

it's just the math

just thought, you ought to know in order to understand the math above that the empty set ∅ is a subset of all sets. it is a simple proof you can probably discover for yourself. it is not an element of any set, because it is not an element - but it is contained in all sets.

 

[Ralph-]

what you're trying to prove is that something can change that - that A or B can become 'not saved' - that either A or B is a member of [SUP]¬[/SUP]S, the 'not saved' set.

Noooooo.....I'm not saying that.
The person with no lifestyle consistent with having a new nature, the nature of God, is not saved. That's what I'm saying. But it is being argued in this thread that is not true.

It doesn't matter if they used to be saved but aren't now, or whether they never believed to begin with. The point is, if they are unbelieving when Jesus comes back they will be burned, not saved. That's what you people aren't getting. You think you can be your old self when Jesus comes back and you will still be saved. That's called Freegrace doctrine. Sometimes called Hypergrace doctrine. Both of which, by the way, are not allowed to be pushed in this forum.

Once saved always saved teaching used to be that the truly saved person would have the life to go along with his genuine conversion and that he would persevere in it to the very end, and if he didn't that meant he wasn't really saved to begin with. But now once saved always saved means you can live in your old life, have no change of life according to the new nature and you will still be saved when Christ comes back. That's Hypergrace doctrine. Which I believe, and heard other people say they believe, is the final end time undoing of the church in this age. We will not recover from this. It will decimate the church in accordance with end time prophecy just before Christ comes back. We're seeing it happen before our eyes.

 

[Ralph-]

you don't clean fish before you catch them. you catch the fish, then you clean them. the fisherman guts the fish; the fish don't gut themselves. you got a problem with a fish hasn't been gutted yet? your beef is with the fisherman, not the fish. so maybe we should praying, rather than arguing

The cleaning happens when you first believe. If you aren't clean as the result of salvation then you aren't saved. Dirty feet and not having a bath are two very different things. It's being pushed here that you can be unbathed and you'll still be saved when Christ comes back. Won't happen. Repent people, or perish!

 

[dcontroversal]

Only he who does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God-Matthew 7:21. Read the passage. He's talking about having FRUIT.

Trees that don't bear good fruit are cut down and thrown into the fire. Why bring once saved always saved into this except to claim that makes it so you CAN be a fruitless tree and not be thrown in the fire, making Jesus a liar. I mean, if you're going to join the once saved always saved argument and the 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back' arguments together that's what you're saying-fruitless trees will not be thrown in the fire. But Jesus said they will be. Who do we listen to?

And the will of the Father is to believe on him whom he has sent....an apparent simple truth that you cannot grasp due to being wrapped up in the axle of works.....

 

[dcontroversal]

No, you're the dense one. Jesus said only those who do the will of the Father, that is, have fruit (that's what the context is) will enter the kingdom. But you say in posts that you do not have to do the will of the Father (bear fruit) and you will still enter the kingdom.

Hahahahahhha the will of the Father is to believe on the one sent....keep rejecting the truth and supplanting with your bright ideas and see how that works out for you.....emphasis upon works in your case.....Lord, Lord have we not.....

 

[Ralph-]

if they belong to the Spirit who else can claim any ownership of them?

If they belong to the Spirit how can they not be new creations? Romans 8:9.

The person who is still 'in the flesh' is not born again. They do not have the Spirit of God in them in salvation.

 

[Ralph-]

Hahahahahhha the will of the Father is to believe on the one sent....keep rejecting the truth and supplanting with your bright ideas and see how that works out for you.....emphasis upon works in your case.....Lord, Lord have we not.....

Look bud, I know that you are an unbeliever. I'm not letting you provoke me with your pretending to not understand the argument being leveled against your Hypergrace beliefs. If you were saved you would not continue to say Jesus' plain words are not true. Fruitless trees are not saved. They are cast into the fire. Hypergrace can't just decide Jesus is wrong and say they will be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

..keep rejecting the truth and supplanting with your bright ideas and see how that works out for you.....emphasis upon works in your case.....Lord, Lord have we not.....

Oh, by the way. The people in Matthew 7 do not have works. Jesus said they are lawless. What they have is ministry service. And they think that makes it good with them and Christ. That's you, not me. I'm not living in lawlessness and thinking my service in the church makes it okay.

 

[dcontroversal]

Look bud, I know that you are an unbeliever. I'm not letting you provoke me with your pretending to not understand the argument being leveled against your Hypergrace beliefs. If you were saved you would not continue to say Jesus' plain words are not true. Fruitless trees are not saved. They are cast into the fire. Hypergrace can't just decide Jesus is wrong and say they will be saved.

Unbeliever....not hardly pal....I, like Paul believed to the saving of the soul....it is your false dogma that I have issues with....and like normal....workers for twisiting and lying about what has actually been said....by your accusatory lies it is you pal that proves you neither follow your own dogma, much less actually know the truth.....twice now you have misrepresented the truth and now judge my salvation......Fran was right....you gonna set us straight...on the fact that you do not know what your talking about......

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh, by the way. The people in Matthew 7 do not have works. Jesus said they are lawless. What they have is ministry service. And they think that makes it good with them and Christ. That's you, not me. I'm not living in lawlessness and thinking my service in the church makes it okay.

Ohhhhhhhhhh you really got me on that one........not......!

 

[Ralph-]

Look, dcontroversial. I'm not going to beat your face in for being an unbeliever. I just want you to not be deceived, and to not deceive others. Adulterers, fornicators, the covetous, the greedy, idolaters, drunkards, the hateful, etc.-1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21. Those who live unrighteous lives, living in those things, will NOT inherit the kingdom. "Do not be deceived".