Not By Works

[Hizikyah]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

Is it done out of love, or is not. Is it done from a sacrifice or for self gain, Jesus said love God and Love neighbor, in this is all the law and prophet fulfilled. .

 

[gb9]

You see that is the difference .. you actually reply as if I myself speak those things.. I said I believe the Lord. And yet you seem blissfully unaware still trying to be right.. eg in our own mind we can always be right.. you win.. but nothing you state changes my belief.. and you did say you would no longer talk yet you have and I reply.. but don’t try and control my response as if it is a must I answer yes or no to you.. and that works both ways.. you go round in circles because you must prove me wrong.. yet it is not my Word that I believe but the Lord’s... so I can be right to believe or wrong to believe Him according to you.. but I still believe Him... if not more each passing day as I abide here.

it is not about trying to " prove someone wrong " or " control one's answers " . it is about honesty, truth. if you are so confident in what you believe, state it. if someone proves you wrong, admit it.

like this- we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works. we are saved by keeping commands, not by obeying the Torah.

we do good works and keep commands because we are saved, not to earn it.

that is how one makes a clear statement.

 

[gb9]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

knowing to do good and not doing it.

 

[dcontroversal]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

Anything that misses the mark and falls short of God's glory..........and like Jesus said...break the least = guilty of the WHOLE.......

 

[Studyman]

I personally believe it goes to the root....if the root is corrupt the whole tree is corrupt......they were found in iniquity because they were not saved and have never been saved......it goes to the gospel and what they had trusted into.....for example....Paul was clear in Galatians....to begin in the spirit (faith) and then finish it off by works (law keeping) is to believe in a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND (HETEROS) and said different gospel has NO POWER but = double cursed.....

Same thing JESUS said about the Pharisees making two fold the disciples of hell....

The now have to get over

a. The false religion that have espoused
b. The fact that they are lost and need JESUS

As far as the bolded in your reply....that may be a misunderstanding....I have always said a believer will bear fruit, have at least one work ect. that proves they have been saved and have even qualified it by saying that JESUS said, "He that has believed in the one sent has done the works of the FATHER which is in heaven" We are to be a living sacrifice and allow Jesus to work through us, but that does not embellish or top off salvation which is a one off experience with on going eternal consequences.....saved UNTO good works....NOT saved BY good works.....

ANY BLEND with faith for = a false gospel with no power.

As far as works meet for repentance.....we can ALL do things that seem very biblical, godly etc.....but only God can judge the heart or state of the man....

This is not to say that we cannot judge one's "gospel" and or identify the validity or lack thereof......

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. It is good for men to have such discussions I think.

There does seem to be a theme in the Old and New Testaments though.

Specifically to the New, Jesus didn't know those folks who worshipped Him in Matt. 7 because, HE said, they "worked iniquity" or as translated, they lived in disobedience to God's Law.

And as for the "many" Mainstream God of Abraham preaching people of His time He suggested the same reason for rejecting them.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


These two examples seem to be saying the same thing. And given Paul also preaches.

Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

So I absolutely agree with you that God knows our mind.

But given all these examples of people who thought they knew God/Jesus, but didn't, I am convinced more that ever that it isn't God that doesn't know our mind, it is us who don't know our own mind.

I believe This explains why Jesus said to "TAKE HEED".
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

God can't be deceived but we can. He has given us all the tools to "Take Heed" we are not deceived as James teaches, but if we reject His instruction, He will reject us.

Well food for thought, thanks DC

 

[Hizikyah]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

Is it done out of love, or is not. Is it done from a sacrifice or for self gain, Jesus said love God and Love neighbor, in this is all the law and prophet fulfilled. .

This is true

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account.”[/FONT]

​

but there is also a very simple Scripture that explains what a sin is;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

[/FONT]

Is it done out of love, or is not. Is it done from a sacrifice or for self gain, Jesus said love God and Love neighbor, in this is all the law and prophet fulfilled. .

Also is there any Laws that can be broken and still be loving our neighbor?

 

[gb9]

This is true

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account.”

​

but there is also a very simple Scripture that explains what a sin is;

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."



Also is there any Laws that can be broken and still be loving our neighbor?

I smell an attempt at a" Sabbath gotcha " coming.

I wish you false teachers would get some new tactics, these are getting easy to see coming. or better yet, stop false teaching about the Law, the whole world, ( gentiles ) was never under the Torah.

 

[Studyman]

What is the measurement for sin? How do we know what a sin is?

We would have two choices, we could listen to the Creator of Righteousness, the God of Abraham and his Son, or we could listen to religious men.

God through His Word says "Sin is the Transgression of the Law", which would mean God's Law, given He is the one who created it.

"for by the law if the knowledge of sin"

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. It is good for men to have such discussions I think.

There does seem to be a theme in the Old and New Testaments though.

Specifically to the New, Jesus didn't know those folks who worshipped Him in Matt. 7 because, HE said, they "worked iniquity" or as translated, they lived in disobedience to God's Law.

And as for the "many" Mainstream God of Abraham preaching people of His time He suggested the same reason for rejecting them.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


These two examples seem to be saying the same thing. And given Paul also preaches.

Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

So I absolutely agree with you that God knows our mind.

But given all these examples of people who thought they knew God/Jesus, but didn't, I am convinced more that ever that it isn't God that doesn't know our mind, it is us who don't know our own mind.

I believe This explains why Jesus said to "TAKE HEED".
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

God can't be deceived but we can. He has given us all the tools to "Take Heed" we are not deceived as James teaches, but if we reject His instruction, He will reject us.

Well food for thought, thanks DC

Sure....and lest we forget....Paul who was taught by direct revelation from JESUS and who writes 13 of the 27 N.T. books concluded that a man is justified before God by faith without works and JAMES who wrote 1 book of the bible concluded that a man's faith that justifies is SEEN By men based upon our works

the problem begins when men conflate the two issues and attempt to say something the bible does not say......

Men justified before God by faith
The faith that justifies a man before GOD is seen by men based upon works

Saved UNTO

not

Saved By

 

[loveme1]

Yet you refuse to answer yes or no.

You post verses all I can do is go by those verses and the context.

why are you afraid to tell us what you believe outright?

I believe him too, I believe he will never leave or forsake us, no matter what, and he will leave the whole flock to go get his lost sheep. And those who are truly his will follow him, because they are his to begin with.

face it, if you answered yes or no, this whole conversation would be resolved. Why you are afraid to say it i have no idea. Its sad.

What i I find sad is you see not that I have answered you over and over... and over hehe.. I don’t have anything to resolve with you..

Yet my belief is based on the authority of the Lord...

I’m not going to tell my Lord he can’t blot me out or count me unworthy.. I’m going to believe Him for who am I to reply anything against Him? It is not going to happen.

I submitt and am content to live by Faith and not exalt myself as if I have a GOD given right rather than a gift to be treasured and appreciated forever... especially since I know I do not deserve it in the slightest..

I trust GOD is Faithful and Powerful.. not so I can strut around like a special one but because He is the Special one and I feel blesssed to of been saved.. so I do set my heart to obey because I Believe He is guiding me Home to Heavenly Father.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is true

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account.”

​

but there is also a very simple Scripture that explains what a sin is;

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."



Also is there any Laws that can be broken and still be loving our neighbor?

anything done out of love is not sin''anything done for self is sin

two people can do the exact same thing, one can be in sin doing it, the other can be doing a work of the spirit doing it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What i I find sad is you see not that I have answered you over and over... and over hehe.. I don’t have anything to resolve with you..

Yet my belief is based on the authority of the Lord...

I’m not going to tell my Lord he can’t blot me out or count me unworthy.. I’m going to believe Him for who am I to reply anything against Him? It is not going to happen.

I submitt and am content to live by Faith and not exalt myself as if I have a GOD given right rather than a gift to be treasured and appreciated forever... especially since I know I do not deserve it in the slightest..

I trust GOD is Faithful and Powerful.. not so I can strut around like a special one but because He is the Special one and I feel blesssed to of been saved.. so I do set my heart to obey because I Believe He is guiding me Home to Heavenly Father.

then all I can do is say you teach salvation can be lost. And continually to believe such because when you post the things you do, I do not know how else to inte4rpret that.

SInce you refuse to say yes or no, you leave me no other choice.

so again, DO not yell or attack me when I say you claim salvation can be lost. Ok?

The only right answer is yes or no. If you want to explain why that is fine. But since you refuse. All we can do is think you are hiding something, It is sad you are so insecure in your faith you will not say yes or no. Sad.

 

[loveme1]

I smell an attempt at a" Sabbath gotcha " coming.

I wish you false teachers would get some new tactics, these are getting easy to see coming. or better yet, stop false teaching about the Law, the whole world, ( gentiles ) was never under the Torah.

Is HizikYah trying to snare you in to the gentile dreaded Sabbath.. gosh only by Faith can one delight.. otherwise you would find yourself fretting to move for a whole day lest you die..

No only Faith in the Lord of Sabbath can one Truly Rest on the Sabbath. To worship GOD in Spirit and Truth is a way of life through Christ who makes it clear Sabbath was made for man and not man for Sabbath and it is lawful to do good.

 

[loveme1]

then all I can do is say you teach salvation can be lost. And continually to believe such because when you post the things you do, I do not know how else to inte4rpret that.

SInce you refuse to say yes or no, you leave me no other choice.

so again, DO not yell or attack me when I say you claim salvation can be lost. Ok?

The only right answer is yes or no. If you want to explain why that is fine. But since you refuse. All we can do is think you are hiding something, It is sad you are so insecure in your faith you will not say yes or no. Sad.

I have yet to yell or attack you.. and if I’m accused of such for believing the Lord then guilty as charged.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We would have two choices, we could listen to the Creator of Righteousness, the God of Abraham and his Son, or we could listen to religious men.

God through His Word says "Sin is the Transgression of the Law", which would mean God's Law, given He is the one who created it.

"for by the law if the knowledge of sin"

Abraham did not have the law. Yet he could obey God has given many commands, Not just mosaic commands.

 

[Snoozy]

I smell an attempt at a" Sabbath gotcha " coming.

I wish you false teachers would get some new tactics, these are getting easy to see coming. or better yet, stop false teaching about the Law, the whole world, ( gentiles ) was never under the Torah.

yes theres a lot of sabbath folks here. maybe they are adventist. i know they believe its mark of the beast to go to church on sunday but thats not true. it dont got nothing to do with buying or selling.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have yet to yell or attack you.. and if I’m accused of such for believing the Lord then guilty as charged.

Can we lose salvation, yes or no?

why are you so afraid to answer?

 

[gb9]

Is HizikYah trying to snare you in to the gentile dreaded Sabbath.. gosh only by Faith can one delight.. otherwise you would find yourself fretting to move for a whole day lest you die..

No only Faith in the Lord of Sabbath can one Truly Rest on the Sabbath. To worship GOD in Spirit and Truth is a way of life through Christ who makes it clear Sabbath was made for man and not man for Sabbath and it is lawful to do good.

by the way, I usually rest on sun. after church. I do not paly my car radio on sun. I do not do housework or yardwork on sun .

but, if literal folks you , who are so into commands, Exodus 35 v.3- do not even kindle a fire on the Sabbath.

so, if you turn the heat on, you just violated it. you know, literally.

 

[dcontroversal]

then all I can do is say you teach salvation can be lost. And continually to believe such because when you post the things you do, I do not know how else to inte4rpret that.

SInce you refuse to say yes or no, you leave me no other choice.

so again, DO not yell or attack me when I say you claim salvation can be lost. Ok?

The only right answer is yes or no. If you want to explain why that is fine. But since you refuse. All we can do is think you are hiding something, It is sad you are so insecure in your faith you will not say yes or no. Sad.

I am so glad the bible teaches a confident expectation of something guaranteed (hope) and God has given us the down payment of our eternal inheritance (Sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption) and that we are saved and kept by the POWER OF GOD and JESUS promises to finish and complete that which he has began because he will LOSE NOTHING...and that we are in the Father's hand and the Son's hand and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God....as a matter of fact one must disregard so many promises of God, deny the words eternal and or everlasting or change the meaning of the words and reject the fact that salvation is spoken of in all three tenses with a present continuing result from a past complete action to teach the loss of salvation.