this makes me wonder if saul was ever saved it looks like.
but i believe this is maybe different dispensation. could be. i hear ruckman say it about it
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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but i believe this is maybe different dispensation. could be. i hear ruckman say it about it
P
PHart
Guest
Just for the record, I'm purposely staying out of d' controversy (pun intended) that has come to light in this thread. We all have a right to think in our hearts what the truth may be about the matter.
I will just say it is right and fitting for an accusation against a leader in the church to be publicly challenged, as opposed to being privately challenged (see 1 Timothy 5:19-20). And I'm rejoicing not because my doctrinal opponent may have been exposed, if that's the case, but because it may lead to his healing and restoration, not his condemnation, which is why we engage in Christian discussion for in the first place.
I will just say it is right and fitting for an accusation against a leader in the church to be publicly challenged, as opposed to being privately challenged (see 1 Timothy 5:19-20). And I'm rejoicing not because my doctrinal opponent may have been exposed, if that's the case, but because it may lead to his healing and restoration, not his condemnation, which is why we engage in Christian discussion for in the first place.
Think back to what GOD equates that loving Him is...
Think back to what the Messiah states.
Now consider the description of the saints...
Will those that Love GOD be told to depart?
The Lord Have we not done wonderful works in your name? Think of all those Preachers doing wonderful works in His name.. or appearing to.. a million dollars to here a million to there and 5 million to me they say.. but they did not seek First the Kingdon of GOD.
That is my understanding as well.
I just wondered at this statement of Christ. Time has run out for these people and it seems they have just figured this out. It doesn't seem to me that they were bragging of their works, rather, making the case for themselves given they now see what awaits them.
Jesus saw fit to use this as an example of "MANY" who come in His Name.
I am struck at their surprise. It appears from the actual text that they really believed they were saved. They taught in Christ's name, they healed in Christ's name, in fact, they gave Jesus the credit for nearly everything they did?
Yet, because they "worked iniquity" their worship was in vain, and because their time had run out, they didn't make it. Pretty serious stuff.
So because it is so serious, I looked up the Greek for the word "Iniquity" so I might better understand why Jesus rejected them.
Greek 458 "anomia" = violation of law, transgression of law, Lawless, without law, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
So you preach that these "many" were not saved to begin with, and I can't argue that. But the fact that these "many" didn't know they were rejected of Christ until they got the Great Throne Judgment, that is frightening.
And given iniquity means law breaking, it appears that Jesus didn't care that they taught in His Name, healed people in His Name, did many wonderful works in His name. When it came to the final judgment, it was THEIR works that was the deciding factor, not the works of Jesus who said He didn't know them BECAUSE of their works.
And Paul seems to agree with Jesus:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
So given these in Matthew were doing "works", they were preaching, healing, and doing many wonderful things in Christ's name, but since these did not include obedience to God's Laws, they were rejected.
Is it accurate to say the Works mentioned that are worthy of repentance is obedience to God's laws?
I can think of nothing worse than to spend my life belonging to a church that "teaches in Christ's name", heals people of addictions and this life's evils, who feed and carry out missions all over the world just to find out in "that day", when it's to late to do anything about it, that because I "transgressed the commandments of God by my own church doctrines and traditions", that He doesn't even know me.
Anyway, I know you preach that we are not responsible to do anything regarding our salvation, including being "lawful". That when we believe in Jesus, He takes over.
So How do you square this scripture you used to support that preaching?
I look forward to your response
Z
Zi
Guest
Relationship has love.
You sound just good enough but it's all outward signs.
Without relationship you don't know what love looks like. You'd be guessing, then works led..
If I'm wrong on your meaning then it's a communication barrier we have..
You sound just good enough but it's all outward signs.
Without relationship you don't know what love looks like. You'd be guessing, then works led..
If I'm wrong on your meaning then it's a communication barrier we have..
Because it is not place to answer but let GOD be heard and what He declares I believe.
It is written that names can be blotted out- so I believe Him.
It is written that some are not worthy to walk in white with Him- so I believe Him.
It is written that some had not defiled their garment and were worthy- so I believe Him.
Do you understand?
My opinion changes not the Truth..
If GOD states those that Love Him Keep His Commandments and the Messiah states to Love GOD.. I believe.. yet I can not love GOD because I need to be born again of the Holy Spirit .. and find a love shed abroad because GOD loved me first.. And my Spirit delights where before it feared.. GOD changed me inwardly.. Amazing Grace.. and recently I was rebuked.. and warned to return to my First Love.. and GOD increases to keep me.. and I’m quite sure many here relate for I’m nothing but a sinner adopted to be a Child of GOD.. undeservedly.. but GOD is Gracious as my name declares..
P
PHart
Guest
That's a tough call, since God gave the gifts of the Spirit to people on the basis of position, not salvation, in the old covenant. Which means even a yutz like Eli could operate in a spiritual ministry.
But what Saul and others do illustrate for us is that it is through our lives that we gain assurance of our salvation. Since he lived such a pathetic life we're left wondering if he was really saved. We wonder because his life showed he may well have had no saving relationship with God at all and that he was just being used in the administration of the kingdom by virtue of calling alone, which as I pointed out is how it worked in the old covenant. Let each of us be careful to live lives that don't leave others wondering if we were really saved or not.
So, only people who are living out their faith in Christ have the assurance of their salvation. That is why the Bible exhorts us to work, not so we can earn our salvation, but so we can know for ourselves that we are indeed prepared to meet God on the Day of Judgment, our works confirming the presence of the Holy Spirit in salvation within us. Those who obey God in a lifestyle of obedience, summed up in the command to love, they are the ones who have no fear of the coming Judgment (1 John 4:17-18). Their lives confirm that they are indeed saved, sealed and ready to pass safely through the coming purging of the universe by fire.
I wonder, is it possible to be loved by people, who post like this.
What morality could you gain?
One action is evil, and another, posting scriptures appears good.
So sin is defined by the observer, not actually the things themselves.
Imagine being judged like this. You will go to Hell because you breathed
here, but are ok now because you sat down on a chair.
It would be chaos.
All I can conclude these guys do not know the Lord. And once I am evil,
no matter what I do, they will not approve, but like vultures pick at what
they can.
But as with all pure animosity, that is all it is.
In true spiritual terms, I praise the Lord for persecution for righteousness sake
is something worthy of great reward. So thankyou my friends, for giving me
great reward.
And the interesting reality, is how do you show love to those who wish to destroy
you and oppose everything you share?
Just speak the truth, because they will continue to do what they continue to do.
Ironic, that nothing will change this, because kingdoms and realities have gone
before us, and though we hope things will be different, they never have been.
For a start I’m not good enough.. GOD is Good.. and I will allow you to call me whatever you like or see fit to accuse.. but friend please don’t say I don’t know what GOD’s Love is.. because I could not share or be here today without His Love. and.. if my love is feigned then you and I both know that He who searches hearts will not be fooled..
P
PHart
Guest
For the believer:
His works give him the assurance of salvation.
His faith gives him the security of salvation.
His works give him the assurance of salvation.
His faith gives him the security of salvation.
How do you know what I judge?
As Paul would say, I do not even judge myself.
I think this is both a straw man, you are projecting something I do not do, then telling me
my conclusions, then saying I am wrong.
What is the value of doing this, other than trying to stirr up trouble?
Obviously it must give you a kick somewhere else you would not be drawn to behave like this.
It reminds me of children who cannot resist punching people when no one is looking.
According to Dcon, and I doubt he would lie, his Twitter account was hacked and he has stated that this is an ongoing thing..That very well could be why he "quit his account", and not because you think he did it to "preserve his image".. You're being rather presumptuous to speculate on the reason why he closed his Twitter. JMO
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is why no on can discuss with you,
we tell you you believe salvation can be lost, then you act as if we are slandering you by saying such, then when we ask you yes or no, instead of saying you respond like this,
well thanks for proving me right,
next time i say you teach salvation can be lost, do not question me again ok?
ps., god never said salvation can be lost, but he did say many who claim to have salvation do not have it,
there is only one way to be worthy, and thats the blood, those who were washed by the blood obey his commands, pleasing and simple
Z
Zi
Guest
I meant that in a general sense. I don't know you well enough to say one-way or the other.. I'm simply going by words used.. I gave the disclaimer that I could be taking you wrong.. interpretation is key. I do not know how you communicate..
The game telephone is a brilliant illustrator for differences in the way people "hear"
The game telephone is a brilliant illustrator for differences in the way people "hear"
What this reminds me of is the total stupidity of this approach.
Jesus has preached about doing things and approving of those who follow His instructions.
These are all ignored but the words about Him not knowing some people, is taken as the
enemies who have faith and being rejected though they thought they were accepted.
Ironically this very emphasis testifies against them.
That is my understanding as well.
I just wondered at this statement of Christ. Time has run out for these people and it seems they have just figured this out. It doesn't seem to me that they were bragging of their works, rather, making the case for themselves given they now see what awaits them.
Jesus saw fit to use this as an example of "MANY" who come in His Name.
I am struck at their surprise. It appears from the actual text that they really believed they were saved. They taught in Christ's name, they healed in Christ's name, in fact, they gave Jesus the credit for nearly everything they did?
Yet, because they "worked iniquity" their worship was in vain, and because their time had run out, they didn't make it. Pretty serious stuff.
So because it is so serious, I looked up the Greek for the word "Iniquity" so I might better understand why Jesus rejected them.
Greek 458 "anomia" = violation of law, transgression of law, Lawless, without law, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
So you preach that these "many" were not saved to begin with, and I can't argue that. But the fact that these "many" didn't know they were rejected of Christ until they got the Great Throne Judgment, that is frightening.
And given iniquity means law breaking, it appears that Jesus didn't care that they taught in His Name, healed people in His Name, did many wonderful works in His name. When it came to the final judgment, it was THEIR works that was the deciding factor, not the works of Jesus who said He didn't know them BECAUSE of their works.
And Paul seems to agree with Jesus:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
So given these in Matthew were doing "works", they were preaching, healing, and doing many wonderful things in Christ's name, but since these did not include obedience to God's Laws, they were rejected.
Is it accurate to say the Works mentioned that are worthy of repentance is obedience to God's laws?
I can think of nothing worse than to spend my life belonging to a church that "teaches in Christ's name", heals people of addictions and this life's evils, who feed and carry out missions all over the world just to find out in "that day", when it's to late to do anything about it, that because I "transgressed the commandments of God by my own church doctrines and traditions", that He doesn't even know me.
Anyway, I know you preach that we are not responsible to do anything regarding our salvation, including being "lawful". That when we believe in Jesus, He takes over.
So How do you square this scripture you used to support that preaching?
I look forward to your response
I personally believe it goes to the root....if the root is corrupt the whole tree is corrupt......they were found in iniquity because they were not saved and have never been saved......it goes to the gospel and what they had trusted into.....for example....Paul was clear in Galatians....to begin in the spirit (faith) and then finish it off by works (law keeping) is to believe in a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND (HETEROS) and said different gospel has NO POWER but = double cursed.....
Same thing JESUS said about the Pharisees making two fold the disciples of hell....
The now have to get over
a. The false religion that have espoused
b. The fact that they are lost and need JESUS
As far as the bolded in your reply....that may be a misunderstanding....I have always said a believer will bear fruit, have at least one work ect. that proves they have been saved and have even qualified it by saying that JESUS said, "He that has believed in the one sent has done the works of the FATHER which is in heaven" We are to be a living sacrifice and allow Jesus to work through us, but that does not embellish or top off salvation which is a one off experience with on going eternal consequences.....saved UNTO good works....NOT saved BY good works.....
ANY BLEND with faith for = a false gospel with no power.
As far as works meet for repentance.....we can ALL do things that seem very biblical, godly etc.....but only God can judge the heart or state of the man....
This is not to say that we cannot judge one's "gospel" and or identify the validity or lack thereof......
How do you know what I judge?
As Paul would say, I do not even judge myself.
I think this is both a straw man, you are projecting something I do not do, then telling me
my conclusions, then saying I am wrong.
What is the value of doing this, other than trying to stirr up trouble?
Obviously it must give you a kick somewhere else you would not be drawn to behave like this.
peter, I am not your enemy. I am trying to tell you that no human being, other than Christ on earth, is sinless.
because the measure is this- missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. these determine sin and sinless.
your opinion of yourself , self-assessment, does not factor into equation. if I say I am seven feet tall, if that does not measure out to be true by the standards of height, them I am not, no matter how I feel about it.
You see that is the difference .. you actually reply as if I myself speak those things.. I said I believe the Lord. And yet you seem blissfully unaware still trying to be right.. eg in our own mind we can always be right.. you win.. but nothing you state changes my belief.. and you did say you would no longer talk yet you have and I reply.. but don’t try and control my response as if it is a must I answer yes or no to you.. and that works both ways.. you go round in circles because you must prove me wrong.. yet it is not my Word that I believe but the Lord’s... so I can be right to believe or wrong to believe Him according to you.. but I still believe Him... if not more each passing day as I abide here.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yet you refuse to answer yes or no.
You post verses all I can do is go by those verses and the context.
why are you afraid to tell us what you believe outright?
I believe him too, I believe he will never leave or forsake us, no matter what, and he will leave the whole flock to go get his lost sheep. And those who are truly his will follow him, because they are his to begin with.
face it, if you answered yes or no, this whole conversation would be resolved. Why you are afraid to say it i have no idea. Its sad.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
the difference is I will say yes or now, and explain why when asked. You have continually refused to say it, and then wonder why people act the way they do.