Not By Works

[7seasrekeyed]

Do we all get it yet after 1800 pages?

These folks, PHart, loveme1, willybob, PeterJens, mj007 and others do not believe in the sufficiency of the work of Christ. They then do not believe the Gospel.

All they can do and teach, day in, day out is that which discredits the work of Christ and mitigates the true Gospel.

well not at all.

this post amounts to a slur

nothing to congratulate anyone on at all

you might do well to remember that the 'they' you refer to, are Christians

you do believe we are saved even though we do not agree with you, right?

why is it, that you and others are so constant in your twisting of what those who disagree with your stance state?

you know, you didn't write the Bible...nor did anyone else here...and it seems there is plenty of room for discussion, but that does not seem valid for some

in order to make a point, some kind of 'dig' has to be taken or mockery

and so many join in

it's becoming a testimony it seems. maybe you should stop it.

 

[dalok6800]

With this logic, Abraham's righteousness would have been discredited when he lied Gen 20:12

Following your own thought here. Would not Abraham's righteousness been discredited in Genesis 12:5 when he disobeyed God and brought a relative with him and not in Gen 20:12?

But his righteousness was never discredited at any point, because he believed and took a step and another step and so on.

 

[AbigailZeke]

Following your own thought here. Would not Abraham's righteousness been discredited in Genesis 12:5 when he disobeyed God and brought a relative with him and not in Gen 20:12?

But his righteousness was never discredited at any point, because he believed and took a step and another step and so on.

There's no argument there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some people just can't believe how far Jesus has gone for them.

Romans 4:8 is probably blasphemous to them lol

How blessed is the person whose sins the Lord will never charge against him!

lol they will say that is too easy!

while they prove how hard it is (pride prevents us from giving it ALL to Jesus) while they say they gave it all to jesus, what they have yet to give to jesus is their salvation. They refuse to let go of it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Was trust taking a step away from his old life?

If he had not taken a step in 12, would he have been credited in 15? and become a new man in 17? and be blessed in 22?

It all started when he took a step towards the promise.

Are you saying if he had not left Haran, things would be the same?

Would have, could have and should have are all irrelevant when we have numerous verses which state clearly that is was his faith that justified before God and the proof in the pudding that his faith can be seen in that he took a step....You have to remember that in the O.T. a summary is given and then the story that fills in the details comes after the fact......

What does these verses state...?

Romans 4: 3 Abraham believed God, and it was put to his account for righteousness.

Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God

Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The same faith that justified Abraham before GOD is the same faith that justifies us before GOD....It is not based upon our works, but rather our faith.....any work or STEP is a result of the faith we already possess...the same faith which has already justified us before GOD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was trust taking a step away from his old life?

If he had not taken a step in 12, would he have been credited in 15? and become a new man in 17? and be blessed in 22?

It all started when he took a step towards the promise.

But he was not declaired until 15.

Abraham was not saved because he took a step. He was saved because he was assured that Gods would keep his promise (had faith) (and he still lacked faiht in God proven by the many times he sinned) so he did not have a perfect faith.

It was this assurance in Gods trustworthiness which gets all people to take steps. But we were saved the moment we had that assurance.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Hello 7Seasrekeyed, I don't malign people for their thoughts. Here is one example that I responded to appropriately.

Believing AND Loving One Another, is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave

Believing and loving one another will not save a persons soul. I am not a hyper/grace person and have always believed there will be evidence of saving faith in the life of a believer. The issue here that has been going back and forth is, do my works keep me saved. God's saving grace plus my good works will not keep me saved. "True faith will display works"; we are saved unto good works, not by them. I do not malign people or make rude remarks about someone's faith, but have it your way I am what you think I am.

"Faith leads to good works," I agree but they won't keep you saved only God can. OP: Not By Works

I will stop using the phrase "works based salvation," thank you.

I cannot answer for dave

why supply something one person said as the response to my post to what you wrote?

I appreciate your polite response...it is refreshing in this sea of drudge and mud throwing from those who accuse myself and others of being works based salvationists...even though I have yet to see one single post from anyone here I agree with that actually states we believe we work once we are saved in order to KEEP salvation...that has never been said to the best of my knowledge

I see deep disparity between what is posted regarding works, faith, etc. NO ONE has stated works keep you saved. would you please point out such a post to me...I have asked this before and then the crickets start chirping LOL!

it would be a good thing, IMO, to stop using the phrase 'works based salvation'

I do think there are some that do believe, perhaps, in a works based salvation, but again, I am not seeing this here

what I am seeing, is either no desire to actually comprehend in the exchange or actual miscomprehension

God knows which is which

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Following your own thought here. Would not Abraham's righteousness been discredited in Genesis 12:5 when he disobeyed God and brought a relative with him and not in Gen 20:12?

But his righteousness was never discredited at any point, because he believed and took a step and another step and so on.

His righteousness was never discredited because he believed.

He took steps forward and back from that point forward. As AZ tried to show. He had positive faith and negative faith (causing him to sin)

if abraham was found by taking steps (works) as paul said in romans 4. He has reason to boast. Because he saved himself by taking steps.

 

[dcontroversal]

Are you saying if he had not left Haran, things would be the same?


Was trust taking a step away from his old life?

If he had not taken a step in 12, would he have been credited in 15? and become a new man in 17? and be blessed in 22?

It all started when he took a step towards the promise.



Genesis 12.:1-4

Now the Lord said to Abram,“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram went forth as the Lord had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

It comes down to the following....

a. The faith he already possessed caused him to take that step
b. The step generated faith which he did not have

"B" does not bear out when applied unto all the verses which state clearly that "the step" yea "any step" is the result of the faith that one already possesses....

FAITH alone saves and justifies before GOD....said faith will cause us to take a step....the step does not generate faith....faith is already present which generates said step......

ABRAHAM believed GOD....and his faith is seen in the list I posted in Romans....it did not matter...

a. Leave UR
b. Whack yourself (circumcision)
c. Sacrifice Isaac

Abraham had FAITH before a-c and it is that faith which justifies before GOD....the result of his faith is seen BY US in a-c.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Would have, could have and should have are all irrelevant when we have numerous verses which state clearly that is was his faith that justified before God and the proof in the pudding that his faith can be seen in that he took a step....You have to remember that in the O.T. a summary is given and then the story that fills in the details comes after the fact......

What DO these verses state...?

Romans 4: 3 Abraham believed God, and it was put to his account for righteousness.

Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God

Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The same faith that justified Abraham before GOD is the same faith that justifies us before GOD....It is not based upon our works, but rather our faith.....any work or STEP is a result of the faith we already possess...the same faith which has already justified us before GOD.

CORRECTION...I started with one verse and wrote the opening that way and forgot to change does to DO when I edited to show verses instead of verse...MY BAD....

 

[VCO]

Father, I don't need Your Christ's righteousness, as I have my own. I stand holy and without spot or blemish before You. Then comes that pesky little verse For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;.[Isaiah 64:6a] Oops!!

Also Father, I don't have to have Your Christ's righteousness imputed to me, as I also have my own self-righteousness. Then comes in that other pesky little verse “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."[Matthew 5:20] Whoopsy!! Now, where did I put that self-righteousness of mine at? Nope, its not there. Nope, that's not it. Nope, that's not it either. Drat and double drat!

Father, isn't my righteousness and innate faith good enough to please You?

Oh, and the cross of Your Christ was not enough to save me. I had to work day and night, with less than four hours of sleep per night to be saved.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1 Corinthians 1:18] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[Colossians 2:14] and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.[1 Peter 2:24] and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.[Colossians 1:20]

The cross is all we need, the cross is all we have, and He who hung, bled and died on it.

The GIFs are very ANNOYING, therefore, You must be a Charismatic? They are famous for IGNORING what is annoying to other people, and totally IGNORE this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. {Or use ten thousand GIFs.}

Could it be you do not know how to teach with words,
so you post the GIFs you are addicted to?

How is annoying others an act of Christian LOVE?

 

[AbigailZeke]

The GIFs are very ANNOYING, therefore, You must be a Charismatic? They are famous for IGNORING what is annoying to other people, and totally IGNORE this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. {Or use ten thousand GIFs.}

Could it be you do not know how to teach with words,
so you post the GIFs you are addicted to?

How is annoying others an act of Christian LOVE?

But I liked them GIFs...

 

[kaylagrl]

The GIFs are very ANNOYING, therefore, You must be a Charismatic? They are famous for IGNORING what is annoying to other people, and totally IGNORE this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. {Or use ten thousand GIFs.}

Could it be you do not know how to teach with words,
so you post the GIFs you are addicted to?

How is annoying others an act of Christian LOVE?

I saw this comment to the left of my page and had to see for myself what the post was saying. I just have to say that I'm so glad that I have traveled in my lifetime and have met so many Christians of every denomination and fellowshipped with them. Because if my experience of Christians had only been some Ive met on CC,Id have left the church and closed my Bible by now. The comments I see here still amaze me sometimes. Im a Pentecostal and having traveled in all denominations and having met thousands of Christians in all denominations,I can guarantee that Pentecostals are no more or less "annoying" than the next group. And by the by,get use to it,we'll be spending eternity in heaven together.

 

[dalok6800]

His righteousness was never discredited because he believed.

He took steps forward and back from that point forward. As AZ tried to show. He had positive faith and negative faith (causing him to sin)

if abraham was found by taking steps (works) as paul said in romans 4. He has reason to boast. Because he saved himself by taking steps.

But his righteousness was never discredited at any point, because he believed and took a step and another step and so on.

I said this. All I am saying by taking steps, is that the steps he took ,were a walk of faith, belief and obedience and not works. We walk by faith not by sight.

 

[TruthTalk]

I cannot answer for dave

why supply something one person said as the response to my post to what you wrote?

I appreciate your polite response...it is refreshing in this sea of drudge and mud throwing from those who accuse myself and others of being works based salvationists...even though I have yet to see one single post from anyone here I agree with that actually states we believe we work once we are saved in order to KEEP salvation...that has never been said to the best of my knowledge

I see deep disparity between what is posted regarding works, faith, etc. NO ONE has stated works keep you saved. would you please point out such a post to me...I have asked this before and then the crickets start chirping LOL!

it would be a good thing, IMO, to stop using the phrase 'works based salvation'

I do think there are some that do believe, perhaps, in a works based salvation, but again, I am not seeing this here

what I am seeing, is either no desire to actually comprehend in the exchange or actual miscomprehension

God knows which is which

Hi 7seasrekeyed, I posted before about Meggido's post where he said his belief saved him. He is now banned and I am not going to roll back through hundreds of pages of post's to prove a point, I'm finished with that. The OP and many here believe that we are saved apart from works. Our obedience and trust comes from our love for Jesus and what He has already accomplished at the cross. Our faith is a gift of God not a work and so anything we do to further the Gospel is from our heart for what God has done, not a work to keep us saved. And their lay the contention in this thread. "Not By Works"

Hope you stay around for a while you have many good biblical views, folks here have been forgiving to me most of the time.....

 

[Magenta]

You see, TT, many are called, but few are chosen.

Many people know the gospel is true, you know, like the demons know the gospel is true. They've heard the voice of the Holy Spirit telling them and convincing them in their heart that it's true. This is the calling of God. But they don't then place their trust, their believing in what the Holy Spirit has shown them to be true. They aren't chosen on the basis of faith because they don't respond to the calling with trusting/believing. Instead they take false comfort in simply knowing the gospel is true, as if that is what saves a person. Not knowing that it is trusting in the gospel that is credited to them as righteousness, not simply being told that it's true by the Holy Spirit.

Here again you define a non believer and try to apply their falling away as if you are speaking of believers who fell away. I am perplexed at your inability to see that you do this, for this is NOT the first time I have seen you waffle on the point of what constitutes belief.

Then you want us to accept that you know a true believer
when you meet one, and have seen such fall away

 

[dalok6800]

The GIFs are very ANNOYING, therefore, You must be a Charismatic? They are famous for IGNORING what is annoying to other people, and totally IGNORE this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. {Or use ten thousand GIFs.}

Could it be you do not know how to teach with words,
so you post the GIFs you are addicted to?

How is annoying others an act of Christian LOVE?

Only a "Charismatic" would do these things?

How is attacking another group of brothers and sisters an act of Christian Love?

 

[dalok6800]

It comes down to the following....

a. The faith he already possessed caused him to take that step
b. The step generated faith which he did not have

"B" does not bear out when applied unto all the verses which state clearly that "the step" yea "any step" is the result of the faith that one already possesses....

FAITH alone saves and justifies before GOD....said faith will cause us to take a step....the step does not generate faith....faith is already present which generates said step......

ABRAHAM believed GOD....and his faith is seen in the list I posted in Romans....it did not matter...

a. Leave UR
b. Whack yourself (circumcision)
c. Sacrifice Isaac

Abraham had FAITH before a-c and it is that faith which justifies before GOD....the result of his faith is seen BY US in a-c.....

All I was saying is what you are...we walk[take steps] by faith not by sight.

I do not believe if he had not left Haran, it would have been the same thing. As you stated though, this is a could , would, should have.

Thank you for the answers.

 

[dcontroversal]

I want to reiterate for a few naysayers that are rejecting that a works based salvation is being pushed by some.....ANYONE who teaches a losable salvation that must be maintained, kept or facilitated by what one does teaches a works based salvation and in so doing, ignores, rejects and sweeps under the table the promises of God....

a. Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
b. Jesus saves us to the uttermost
c. Jesus keeps us by the power of God
d. Jesus holds us in his hand
e. We are in the Father's hand
f. We are sealed unto the day of redemption
g. We are born of incorruptible seed
h. We are a child by birth
I. Jesus will lose nothing, but rather raise it up the last day
J. Jesus said he will never leave us or forsake us
k. Nothing shall separate us from the love of God
l. Eternal means eternal when applied unto the life Given in Christ
m. Everlasting means everlasting when applied unto life and what God does
n. We are saved, justified and sanctified in Christ forever
o. We are not condemned because of belief into Jesus

etc.....

 

[TruthTalk]

You who teach the church, show me the scripture that says faith is a work of the damnable works gospel that if I think I have to do it I'm trying to earn my salvation. That's all you have to do and I'll stop posting and admit my error of doctrine.

Dear Phart, simple example of a born again believer's faith; If you were to die tonight, (God forbid), and God said to you, why should I let you into my kingdom how would you respond. If your response is I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sin's, that would be a correct contrite heart felt response to salvation, with no respect to self works.

Belief and faith are a gift from God not a work, because we were all dead in our transgression's and sin's. And a dead man cannot believe nor have faith.The Holy Spirit draws us to God and gives us the power to believe and later faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If we say I will lose my salvation if I stop believing, then you just made your salvation a work, something you do or don't do and you are trying to save yourself.

Our Eternal salvation is a gift from God from start to finish. Our obedience; repentance from sin and unbelief, baptism, confessing sin, reading your bible, going to Church, fellowship, communion, worship, are all not a work to keep us saved. Each of us has been given a measure of faith from God, it is our faith (a gift) that keeps us pursuing a life time dedicated to Jesus and serving the Body of Christ, it is God working through us from start to finish. Our faith is a gift from God not a work.

Once we have been born from above, a heavenly birth, Is it possible to just walk away and say thank you but no thank you, yes I suppose, but who would want to reject the kindness of God. If you did walk away, for what ever reason, it was not God's fault and only you are responsible for rejecting God's free gift of eternal salvation.

We are saved from faith to faith by God, not by works lest any man should boast. Our obedience to God is not a work to keep us saved, it comes from our love for Jesus and what He has done to keep us saved and a place in the Lambs Book of Life.

It is a simple Gospel, believe, (a gift from God), then New Birth from above, and Grow in Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.

You are a smart guy PHart and easy to have a discussion with not trying to disrespect your opinions.....

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts4:12

True Gospel