Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

this is so true. if I could like this a 100 times, I would. so many have little interest in the Gospel, they just want to control what others think or do.

I have heard with my own ears how some pastors have " keep them in line " and " housekeeping " sermons on file. Gospel? no ? control? yes!!

Yes...it's about control and jealousy.

We see that in Stephen's defense of the gospel and in Paul's life when the God-fearing religious people came against Paul because he was preaching the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

They put a "spin or twist" on what is really being said to try to make it appear to be saying something else.

It is a common tactic that all of us can fall for but the Lord is bringing to light these things and we will not be deceived by these schemes.

The guy in the video does a great job in exposing this spirit for what it really is in our midst.

Religion is a "bully-boy" as this South African guy puts it.

 

[Stephen63]

I definitely believe there is a great falling away and has been since the gospel has first went out. Remember that the last days started in Acts 2.

The reality is people can be going to church every time the doors are open, praying 5 hours a day, read their bibles 3 hours every day, witness to every thing that moves, be pastoring a church for 30 years, read the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, live good moral lives and still be "fallen away" from the faith.

Sometimes when I see you say this it reminds me of fearmongering

The "fallen away" which is the Greek word aphistēmi really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from

People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.

People fall away from the faith because of intentional spiritual ignorance & believing every false doctrine they hear.

Because of their intentional ignorance & refusing to grow, God will send them strong delusion, so they will believe a lie & be damned.

They will fall away into complete rebellion against God & His Word, & become servants of false doctrine themselves.

2 Timothy 3:13​

New International Version
while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

New Living Translation
But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will deceive others and will themselves be deceived.

English Standard Version
while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Berean Study Bible
while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Berean Literal Bible
But evil men and imposters will advance to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

New American Standard Bible
But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

King James Bible
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Evil people and impostors will become worse, deceiving and being deceived.

International Standard Version
But evil people and impostors will go from bad to worse as they deceive others and are themselves deceived.

 

[Meggido]

Seems pretty obvious to me we are born again in this life to enter into the kingdom of God the next

except the kingdom of God is already within...not a place you are going...in Fact, The Kingdom of Heaven is not even the final destination....

Luke 17.20-21

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Stephen63]

Going to be honest here Stephen63...most of the osas/preservation of the saints believers (which is a biblical and orthodox doctrine) are way more godly in walk than you are from what I see of you on here. I say this in truth and in brotherly love and I'm going to be honest yet again: for them to be so is not much of a feat, considering what I and others see.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Eternal Security basically says we're saved no matter what.

OSAS's have said on here that even if you no longer want to be, you can't.

There's no possible way I can believe OSAS because throughout the Bible, God consistantly gives men choice.

No matter what kind of covenant there is, we have the choice to leave, quit, rebel, etc.

It's what the Bible calls a covenant breaker, spiritual adultery, idolatry. In the OT, nearly all the prophets accuses Israel of playing the harlot, leaving His eternal covenant.

Hebrews gives several OT examples to the church to warn them about this, reminding us we can go apostate.

With OSAS, there's no reason to obey, commit, or submit to God. There is no reason to fear the Lord, which is the beginning of knowledge & wisdom.

That certainly explains the ignorance & unfaithfulness in the modern church, doesn't it?

Ephesians 4​

11Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

​

14Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.15Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

 

[Meggido]

So what....the works did not save them or keep them saved....!

SO.....
What would have happened to Abel if he never offered a Better sacrifice?
What would have happened to Noah if he never built the ark?
What would have happened to Abraham if he never WENT?
What would have happened to Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets if they NEVER:
Conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

 

[Ariel82]

Has anyone ever wondered why the lost sheep left the safety of the fold?

I don't trust anyone who attacks the church and isolated people.

It is true no church is perfect but every one I have attended have people who are truly seeking God...yes we have conflict and issues that need to be resolved but overall it takes only two to have the Holy spirit present.

It saddens me to see such low church attendance....how can you fellowship if people don't make the effort to even show up?

Learning to walk together is part of becoming mature in Christ.

I could say more but will just give it to God in prayer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I liked that video. I felt only one odd pull back toward the law. It was at the point where he said after he sinned and felt that condemnation, that God says don't worry about that. It was a very strong pull. I've changed my mind about losing my trust being a possibility. He has only ever increased my trust, so where would that fear come from?

When he spoke of the woman caught in adultery, it all snapped into sharper focus for me. The woman had committed an awful sin. and the order went like this:
1. Where are your accusers?
2. They are gone.
3. Neither do I condemn you.
4. Go and sin no more.

I can't even begin to tell you what I saw. I'm too astounded to even try right now. Maybe when I get over my shock of falling for it for so long I'll be able to. It makes me angry that I struggled in it for so long. I'm feeling real anger. I'm not sure who to be angry at though. I appear to have done it to myself.

 

[Ariel82]

SO.....
What would have happened to Abel if he never offered a Better sacrifice?
What would have happened to Noah if he never built the ark?
What would have happened to Abraham if he never WENT?
What would have happened to Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets if they NEVER:
Conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

They would have died and God would have found another way for His will to be done. We are told this in Esther.

 

[Stephen63]

For those that enjoy teaching videos - here is a good one on why Stephen was stoned by "God-fearing religious people that thought they were defending God's truth". It's all about control and of course a blindness to the true gospel.


[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]

Rob Rufus is a hyper-grace teacher/preacher.

He is mentioned on JGIG's website, which, coincidentally, is also hyper-grace.
https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/what-about-hyper-grace/

He is mentioned all over the internet opposing Michael Brown, which wrote a book against hyper-grace.

 

[Meggido]

Meggido

I understand what you are saying here. Just one thing though bothers me. The scripture that says we will go on if God permits...that's going on to maturity.

There's a lot of ground to be covered between Pentecost and what I call Tabernacles. Much to be understood. Soft food maybe before the meat?

And then we have Passover and not Pentecost too. So unless God reveals truth to a seeking heart? And how does one become that seeking heart? Is it not yet the work of Holy Spirit?

I see Him working moreso than our involvement. For it's always hearing..then believing then action.

Stones,
To gain proper context of Heb 6.3 [[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do, if God permits.] you have to pick up the complete exhortation. The writer of Hebrews starts the exhortation in Heb 5.11 and it continues through to Heb 6.3

Heb 5.11-14, Heb 6.1-3
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. 1.Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do, if God permits.




In 6.3 the he writer of Hebrews finishes his exhortation by saying we should press on to Spiritual Maturity and God will only permit us to that, if we get past the elementary teachings....and you become meat eaters and fellow teachers of the word

The trouble is far too many love elementary milk...positional-righteousness is meat of the word....and not everyone can or ever will handle the meat...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The man preached the gospel in the video.

 

[UnderGrace]

Sad to see him go as well He is very insightful.

Yes. I sadly noted his "guest" status in a couple of threads

 

[Stephen63]

And John told us exactly what those commandments are in the New Covenant later on in his letter.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

That's only two of them.
That's a really good abuse of scripture there.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

One more thing Bruce and then I'm going to just marvel at this and walk around the house with my jaw on the floor. I am thinking back on all the things I've heard you say that never made sense to me before and they are suddenly making sense.
I remember when I first met God, the feeling that a huge weight had been lifted off of me. I never knew I would feel that again, and even further. And the thought that keeps going through my head is this: if God doesn't condemn me, why do you condemn me? And I don't even know who "you" is! Like I said, it appears to be ME.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's only two of them.
That's a really good abuse of scripture there.

That's because without the two of them, we'll never get to the others.

 

[Zi]

If you're calling him out then you need to add some other names in here.. He's not the worst there is nor is he the only.

Going to be honest here Stephen63...most of the osas/preservation of the saints believers (which is a biblical and orthodox doctrine) are way more godly in walk than you are from what I see of you on here. I say this in truth and in brotherly love and I'm going to be honest yet again: for them to be so is not much of a feat, considering what I and others see.

 

[Meggido]

Yes I have seen some people imply that when you are born again you are fully a new spirit man and never mention the need for growth and maturity. I keep waiting to see if they will speak of it...some do, others just don't seem to ever get there.

I started a discussion on the need for growth and maturity on this thread 10,000, 000 pages ago...crickets from the "crew" here...when it is ever brought up...crickets.....it is a point they do not want to discuss because if you suggest there is need for spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity...it will contradict the part of the message grace they push of passive sanctification of Christ in the believer alone.....and they will have to concede that in regards to spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification they have to play a part in it, and then their heads explode, because they immediately deny it is needed at all because they view it as works to stay saved.....

Not once have I ever witnessed any of them tell us what spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification looks like after getting "SAVED" we only hear it is all passive and God and his Grace will finish them....

This is why there is a perception that their doctrine allows them to live in SIN, deny Jesus and still be saved....

spiritual growth and going onward to spiritual maturity and progressive sanctification require you to surrender fully and die to yourself....many here so there is no way you can do that fully....it is an absolute impossibility....

Jesus did it spiritually, emotionally and physically and he is the example of how we do it now....I am grateful beyond words I do not have to do the physical part....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes...it's about control and jealousy.

We see that in Stephen's defense of the gospel and in Paul's life when the God-fearing religious people came against Paul because he was preaching the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

They put a "spin or twist" on what is really being said to try to make it appear to be saying something else.

It is a common tactic that all of us can fall for but the Lord is bringing to light these things and we will not be deceived by these schemes.

The guy in the video does a great job in exposing this spirit for what it really is in our midst.

Religion is a "bully-boy" as this South African guy puts it.

I clearly saw the jealousy part when he spoke of it in the video. In fact, that was the point at which the focus began to sharpen and it all snapped into place somewhere after that.

The jealousy is this: It was by faith that the one son offered an acceptable sacrifice. And the one who didn't have the faith that would have made his sacrifice acceptable too, was jealous.

When you hear and feel the hatred, you don't understand that it's jealousy. But it is...

 

[Stephen63]

If a person can't spiritually discern hypergrace, he ain't worth a snap to listen to him.

Galatians 5:9​

New Living Translation
This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!

New American Standard Bible
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

1 Corinthians 5:6​

New Living Translation
Your boasting about this is terrible. Don't you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough?

New American Standard Bible
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

1 Corinthians 5:7​

New Living Translation
Get rid of the old "yeast" by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.

New American Standard Bible
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

 

[Ariel82]

The man preached the gospel in the video.

Can't assess the video.., so can't comment on it.