Not By Works

[Stephen63]

Don't you mean.....no matter how one OVER looks it?

No. Some will look at it, & say "surely he didn't mean it that way", & sugar coat over the whole thing, because they like him.

 

[Stephen63]

Over looks what'

that the people who belong to Christ HAVE crucified the flesh?

There is nothing to overlook, either paul was correct. and all who are born of God have crucified the flesh. or paul is a liar, and we can not consider his words to be trustworthy

Who's talking about Paul?

Please put your spectacles on.

 

[joefizz]

James chapter 2 verse 26,"for as the body without the spirit is dead,so faith without works is dead also.
ok I believe the bible just told the answer,"clearly" and "accurately",so what will be the next question to answer???

I'll just put this here....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'll just put this here....

I guess the ongoing question seems to be Is Paul right in Gal 5, have those who belong to Christ HAVE crucfed the flesh,

or was paul wrong? And maybe they have maybe the have not, maybe they have now but later they will not?

Seems Some are confused about the issue

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I guess the ongoing question seems to be Is Paul right in Gal 5, have those who belong to Christ HAVE crucfed the flesh,

or was paul wrong? And maybe they have maybe the have not, maybe they have now but later they will not?

Seems Some are confused about the issue

I think it's confusing to some because they find out almost every day that their flesh isn't crucified because if it were, they'd have control of their tongue, they wouldn't be offended, they wouldn't fume inside over someones selfishness, etc. Dead flesh doesn't shriek and scream because death is silent. In death, shrieking and screaming cease. It is WHILE dying that the screaming happens.

And so theology, or even just one certain verse, doesn't practically help them. And then they might start thinking they aren't saved if their flesh isn't dead. And that's where they need the verses in tension to the one verse that has them in a muddle.

 

[Cee]

I would also say, they struggle to live. It is the truth that sets us free. And Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

Focusing on the lie and death doesn't set us free, but focusing on Him does.

You can tell a man HOW he should live - don't have anger at your brother because if you do you have already murdered - and he wants very badly not to murder anymore, but he still is doing it all the time whenever someone cuts him off in traffic or talks snottily to him. Telling a man how he SHOULD be doesn't make him BE how he should be. There is a struggle because death is just a struggle. Men don't want to die. They want to find a way to NOT die and still follow. So they struggle in their death to self. They struggle to die.

 

[UnderGrace]

True enough, a believer will struggle to live that way if they are honest with themselves

I would also say, they struggle to live. It is the truth that sets us free. And Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

Focusing on the lie and death doesn't set us free, but focusing on Him does.

 

[Cee]

You're quoting a Scripture where Paul says he speaks as if one under the law. I am quoting Scripture of one under grace.

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?

How about you address the Scriptures being discussed instead of simply ignoring them? I think that will make for a better discussion.

Romans 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Are you sure it is an ugly teaching to consider ourselves dead to sin?

C.

Please take another look at this post:


He is saying in a nutshell that because we belong to Christ, we've automatically crucified the flesh.

Jesus didn't crucify our flesh, otherwise Paul would be a failure, for he said he fights with his flesh DAILY.

The above teaching is ugly.

If I ignored him, what kind of watchman would I be?

A useless one, most definitely. And I would be judged for it.

As a christian, I can't afford to turn my head & look the other way.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would also say, they struggle to live. It is the truth that sets us free. And Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

Focusing on the lie and death doesn't set us free, but focusing on Him does.

Ah, we can fine tune that even further! They struggle to die SO THAT they can live...

 

[Ariel82]

The flesh is dead and has no life, but we must learn how to cut it from our hearts and minds...it doesn't happen automatically any more than a baby comes fully grown from the womb.

When people become mature in Christ they can say they have crucified their flesh and fully live in the Spirit, but most are not to that point yet. Most must drink milk and then learn to eat meat, which means spiritual discernment.


I always wonder how people's theology handle the immature babies in Christ?

Some seem to adopt the "toss them in the deep end and see if they float" method of weeding out those they will accept.

Fyi..,if you want to learn what people believe,read their websites...not those who oppose them.

Folks tend to make strawmen of their opponents.

 

[Cee]

I agree if we try to do it in our own power.

Holy Spirit is the one who gives us what we've been freely given:

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

He is the one who helps us understand the things of God. Simply reading them in Scripture sometimes isn't enough. We need the Spirit of God to bring life to His Scriptures. Spiritual things are understood by spirit lead people.

True enough, a believer will struggle to live that way if they are honest with themselves

 

[Cee]

Or how about EVEN further?

They struggle to believe they are already dead to the old man.

So they live focused on trying to kill the old man, over and over, instead of living to the freedom found in Christ.

Ah, we can fine tune that even further! They struggle to die SO THAT they can live...

 

[Cee]

Yes it takes faith to believe we are dead to the flesh, when we are not yet walking it out.

Unbelief can set in and try to get us to focus on what our "senses/flesh" tell us vs what the "Spirit of God" tells us.

This is exactly what happened to Peter when he tried to walk on water, when the Lord said come. He became more focused on what his senses told him instead of Who God was for him. And Jesus asked him why did he doubt?

James tells us doubt is "double mindedness" - we know one mind is the Spirit of God, what do you think the other mind is?

I think it's confusing to some because they find out almost every day that their flesh isn't crucified because if it were, they'd have control of their tongue, they wouldn't be offended, they wouldn't fume inside over someones selfishness, etc. Dead flesh doesn't shriek and scream because death is silent. In death, shrieking and screaming cease. It is WHILE dying that the screaming happens.

And so theology, or even just one certain verse, doesn't practically help them. And then they might start thinking they aren't saved if their flesh isn't dead. And that's where they need the verses in tension to the one verse that has them in a muddle.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it's confusing to some because they find out almost every day that their flesh isn't crucified because if it were, they'd have control of their tongue, they wouldn't be offended, they wouldn't fume inside over someones selfishness, etc. Dead flesh doesn't shriek and scream because death is silent. In death, shrieking and screaming cease. It is WHILE dying that the screaming happens.

And so theology, or even just one certain verse, doesn't practically help them. And then they might start thinking they aren't saved if their flesh isn't dead. And that's where they need the verses in tension to the one verse that has them in a muddle.

While true

as Paul said, set your minds on the spirit.

the problem is not that they have not crucified th flesh, the problem is they have not set their minds on god and let him do what he promised to do.

 

[Ariel82]

James 4 ►
English Standard Version
Warning Against Worldliness

1What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passionsa are at war within you?b 2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4You adulterous people!c Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? 6But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

11Do not speak evil against one another, brothers.d The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Or how about EVEN further?

They struggle to believe they are already dead to the old man.

So they live focused on trying to kill the old man, over and over, instead of living to the freedom found in Christ.

this is my past, so tried to kill my flesh and stop sin, and could not figure out how I never found victory, it was not until I stoped trying and just started doing (the things of God) that I finally found victory and rest.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

True enough, a believer will struggle to live that way if they are honest with themselves

EG had a good point regarding that earlier. He said something about struggling to overcome it in our own hard effort, or something to that effect. I went through a time of doing that, then I saw it was useless and told Him if I was to grow in virtue, it would have to be because He did it somehow. Right after that I began to see great victories over my anger, my tongue, my pride. Then a very mean and nasty person was placed in my breathing space every single day. And I'd holler back and revile back and then feel awful and try harder. I began to FORGET what I'd earlier learned that brought me such victories, and thinking I was now grown in virtue, I started trying to do it on my own again. I forgot to just ASK FOR WHAT I LACKED! But apart from keeping trusting in HIM, I can't be good.

There are just so many layers to it all. It's like trying to juggle 70 balls at once.

 

[Stephen63]

Okay, so present your thoughts nicely. We don't agree with you that the man has no fear of God. He seems to walk pretty consistently in love. That doesn't happen with a man who has no fear of God.

It DOES say those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. But as always, there are verses in tension to this verse. It doesn't make one verse true and the other not true. They have to be put together, taken in account together, and the weight distributed more where the weightier matter IS.

What are the verses in tension to the verse he gave?

He quoted the same verse out of context. When you read the method in his post, he writes in his own meaning, which is eisegesis.

As far as sharpness is concerned, I was light on him.

Titus 1:10For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”13This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
Because he taught false doctrine, he was rebuked.

There is NO QUESTION this was false doctrine, no matter how one looks at it.

SBG, did you see this?

 

[Cee]

The truth is we are all different parts of the Body of Christ.

We all have different roles, understandings, graces on our life, etc.

That means we have an opportunity by honoring one another to each grow. If we don't honor people around us who are lead by the Spirit we end up living like an orphan. But this thread is full of people who honor one another. And the Spirit of Truth is speaking to the hearts of men. And it's beautiful to see.

We won't always agree because we each carry unique revelations of Truth because it is based in relationship that we get to know Him, but we can always choose to love and honor one another.

John 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG had a good point regarding that earlier. He said something about struggling to overcome it in our own hard effort, or something to that effect. I went through a time of doing that, then I saw it was useless and told Him if I was to grow in virtue, it would have to be because He did it somehow. Right after that I began to see great victories over my anger, my tongue, my pride. Then a very mean and nasty person was placed in my breathing space every single day. And I'd holler back and revile back and then feel awful and try harder. I began to FORGET what I'd earlier learned that brought me such victories, and thinking I was now grown in virtue, I started trying to do it on my own again. I forgot to just ASK FOR WHAT I LACKED! But apart from keeping trusting in HIM, I can't be good.

There are just so many layers to it all. It's like trying to juggle 70 balls at once.

i see the same, when I try to do things myself, I crash and burn, when I seek Gods help, and actually keep trusting him, I find victory.