Not By Works
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False teaching. Eisegesis. Learning from fleshly men.
It's plain to see that some people don't have the fear of God in them.
If they did, they would study the scriptures with carefulness, reading the CONTEXT.
What Paul is really doing is pointing out the true children of God have crucified their flesh.
If you continue in false teaching you will be rewarded for being a false teacher.
You should repent.
It's plain to see that some people don't have the fear of God in them.
If they did, they would study the scriptures with carefulness, reading the CONTEXT.
Galatians 5
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.What Paul is really doing is pointing out the true children of God have crucified their flesh.
If you continue in false teaching you will be rewarded for being a false teacher.
You should repent.
U
I do not consider myself a teacher and I would never want to be, just here to discuss, learn and challenge my own beliefs.
I have no problem with a lively discussion....
in my culture that is the way we talk, it is always lively and sometimes loud, but it is rarely personal, and when there is something personal, there is also a deep abiding love and sacrifice among us too, so one forgets and forgives and moves on.
But I do so agree
I have no problem with a lively discussion....
in my culture that is the way we talk, it is always lively and sometimes loud, but it is rarely personal, and when there is something personal, there is also a deep abiding love and sacrifice among us too, so one forgets and forgives and moves on.
But I do so agree
Yes, absolutely. 
And teachers will be held to a higher standard. If a man thinks he can teach another, he best be walking in the Spirit and not reviling back and acting in the same fleshly displays those he is trying to "Teach" are walking in. We can/sometimes do smack each other, but the one teaching us better not be walking that way! If he wants to teach, he better walk in the Spirit with some consistency or he's just a little boy dressed up in his dad's suit and shoes, pretending to be a grown man!
And teachers will be held to a higher standard. If a man thinks he can teach another, he best be walking in the Spirit and not reviling back and acting in the same fleshly displays those he is trying to "Teach" are walking in. We can/sometimes do smack each other, but the one teaching us better not be walking that way! If he wants to teach, he better walk in the Spirit with some consistency or he's just a little boy dressed up in his dad's suit and shoes, pretending to be a grown man!
Please take another look at this post:
He is saying in a nutshell that because we belong to Christ, we've automatically crucified the flesh.
Jesus didn't crucify our flesh, otherwise Paul would be a failure, for he said he fights with his flesh DAILY.
The above teaching is ugly.
If I ignored him, what kind of watchman would I be?
A useless one, most definitely. And I would be judged for it.
As a christian, I can't afford to turn my head & look the other way.
He is saying in a nutshell that because we belong to Christ, we've automatically crucified the flesh.
Jesus didn't crucify our flesh, otherwise Paul would be a failure, for he said he fights with his flesh DAILY.
The above teaching is ugly.
If I ignored him, what kind of watchman would I be?
A useless one, most definitely. And I would be judged for it.
As a christian, I can't afford to turn my head & look the other way.
This is part of mental assent...If you do not die to the process to become the new man, you are just staring at the cross with a false hope...many teach and preach today that you do not have to become a new man...or die.....grace covers the old man just fine...that is what some of us get upset about and is not true...you must die and become new....
Grace becomes perverted when we say we do not have to die and grace covers the old man...and that is where people fall into error..
Then there is the part of transformation through renewing your mind to the Word...
Grace becomes perverted when we say we do not have to die and grace covers the old man...and that is where people fall into error..
Then there is the part of transformation through renewing your mind to the Word...
Okay, so present your thoughts nicely. We don't agree with you that the man has no fear of God. He seems to walk pretty consistently in love. That doesn't happen with a man who has no fear of God.
It DOES say those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. But as always, there are verses in tension to this verse. It doesn't make one verse true and the other not true. They have to be put together, taken in account together, and the weight distributed more where the weightier matter IS.
What are the verses in tension to the verse he gave?
It DOES say those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. But as always, there are verses in tension to this verse. It doesn't make one verse true and the other not true. They have to be put together, taken in account together, and the weight distributed more where the weightier matter IS.
What are the verses in tension to the verse he gave?
This very discussion board is evidence that the evidence is not always evident.
If we are looking for works as evidence than we become fruit inspectors, I personally have no comfort level with that,
I do believe though we are to concern ourselves with false teachers for that we look at their doctrine.
If we are looking for works as evidence than we become fruit inspectors, I personally have no comfort level with that,
I do believe though we are to concern ourselves with false teachers for that we look at their doctrine.
OK and I've not stated anything contrary to this concerning the former part of the above. Your disagreement there is unfonded sister, you're implying I've said things not said or that I believe contrary to this when it is untrue.
I would like to start off on the right foot here because the above is accusatory with no basis as if we differ when we don't on that above sentence.
I do, however, have to disagree that outward performance cannot prove it to anyone (but it's not really "performance" which is being used instead of evidence and unintentionally adds a derogatory tone to something that is actually quite positive -- the evidence and fruit of conversion wrought by Christ in us ). I also agree that salvation is an inward thing and somehow you've construed it to be the opposite of my beliefs, it appears.
By the way, I'm saying evidence, not performance but as per usual others will take the word evidence and make it sound like a works gospel is being preached.
That's not fair, true or accurate in description and is a not so subtle change of terminology that needs to be addressed. Evidence is not performance in it's negative meaning. No LS'er believes they have to perform to "get to heaven." It's a false accusation.
The author of the site did this exact thing himself, and sister you're doing it as well. It's a straw man argument and shows you are making evidence into a work right away by changing the terminology and then the alleged straw man can be beaten down.
That being said, outward evidence can prove it to others, and show it to self. There are some very godly people, who formerly like us all were ungodly -- the evidence in their change, not performance, shows the inward change wrought by Christ. And others can see these good works and glorify God - (see the sermon on the mount).
Agreed, and I believe it must be existent, (which I believe is the opposite of what you're saying).
The thief on the cross showed evidence of regeneration when we look at the change in him, the things he stated and believed. Something inwardly took place and was witnessed outwardly by what he said. Note Luke 23:39-43. The same can also be said of Cornelius in Acts 10. 1 Thessalonians 1 is also a good reference, showing evidence of conversion.
All truly converted individuals show evidence and evidence of salvation is both critical and biblical. There are many passages supporting this, and the epistle 1 John is dedicated to this task using the "we" and "they" example and of tests of sonship. It is not teaching that "if you do these things then you will go to heaven" but "if these evidences are within you it is because you are truly converted" hence 1 John 5:13 in context.
All truly born again believe that. This is nothing different than the beliefs so-called LS advocates adhere to. But you keep going back to "perform works for salvation" when no alleged LS'er believes in this whatsoever. Jesus did it all, He alone saved us the day we believed, and is saving us now as well, a salvation than cannot be lost.
So, for the record, people can call me LS all they desire, but I am saved solely by the work of Christ, alone, freely, and believe that evidence of conversion is not only biblical, but necessary because it is biblical. All LS'ers are falsely accused of a works gospel as witnessed in the provided site.
I disagree here for obvious reasons -- there is nothing separate between the internal event and walking with Jesus as that is where it all began and continues - in the inner man, note Ephesians 3:16. It is the internal man that walks with Him in and since that event and saving process He began.
I agree here but sense the old conflate evidence with works error. Of course it is all to His glory, Philippians 2:12-13.
Evidence of salvation is not a works gospel, nor do any LS'ers believe they have to do a thing to get into heaven other than be truly saved by the grace of God in Christ. As soon as one shows Scripture proving this the false accusations roll out.
The site was offered, and I read it and he is in error right off the bat. Sorry, but he is, and biblically he is way off track preaching that evidence isn't necessary, and condemning others for stating it is, while wresting them falsely as works salvationists. It's incorrect, false, divisive, falsely dividing the body with a straw man argument, false accusations and unbiblical doctrine. Galatians 4:19 may serve as a thought concerning evidence. 2 Corinthians 3:18ff also will serve this as well. The epistle of 1 John. Ezekiel 36:27ff. 1 Corinthians 5:17. Jesus in Matthew 7.
There are many more Scriptures and the evidence is part and parcel to the Gospel message.
Now, to set the record straight -- works do not save, do not keep saved, do not help save, do not assist salvation in any manner, yet evidence of conversion is biblical and is a necessity to show one has been born again. The inward change will have outward manifestation; A tree is known by its fruit. It is also evident by the production of the fruit of the Spirit which is both inner and outward in manifestation; Galatians 5:22-23.
Because of all of this I have to respectfully and biblically disagree that evidence of conversion isn't necessary and must reiterate that evidence is neither performance, nor is it a works gospel. This can also be seen in Philippians 2:12-13 how God works in us to doing and willing His good pleasure. These things are seen both internally and externally in the converted.
I would like to start off on the right foot here because the above is accusatory with no basis as if we differ when we don't on that above sentence.
I do, however, have to disagree that outward performance cannot prove it to anyone (but it's not really "performance" which is being used instead of evidence and unintentionally adds a derogatory tone to something that is actually quite positive -- the evidence and fruit of conversion wrought by Christ in us ). I also agree that salvation is an inward thing and somehow you've construed it to be the opposite of my beliefs, it appears.
By the way, I'm saying evidence, not performance but as per usual others will take the word evidence and make it sound like a works gospel is being preached.
That's not fair, true or accurate in description and is a not so subtle change of terminology that needs to be addressed. Evidence is not performance in it's negative meaning. No LS'er believes they have to perform to "get to heaven." It's a false accusation.
The author of the site did this exact thing himself, and sister you're doing it as well. It's a straw man argument and shows you are making evidence into a work right away by changing the terminology and then the alleged straw man can be beaten down.
That being said, outward evidence can prove it to others, and show it to self. There are some very godly people, who formerly like us all were ungodly -- the evidence in their change, not performance, shows the inward change wrought by Christ. And others can see these good works and glorify God - (see the sermon on the mount).
Agreed, and I believe it must be existent, (which I believe is the opposite of what you're saying).
The thief on the cross showed evidence of regeneration when we look at the change in him, the things he stated and believed. Something inwardly took place and was witnessed outwardly by what he said. Note Luke 23:39-43. The same can also be said of Cornelius in Acts 10. 1 Thessalonians 1 is also a good reference, showing evidence of conversion.
All truly converted individuals show evidence and evidence of salvation is both critical and biblical. There are many passages supporting this, and the epistle 1 John is dedicated to this task using the "we" and "they" example and of tests of sonship. It is not teaching that "if you do these things then you will go to heaven" but "if these evidences are within you it is because you are truly converted" hence 1 John 5:13 in context.
All truly born again believe that. This is nothing different than the beliefs so-called LS advocates adhere to. But you keep going back to "perform works for salvation" when no alleged LS'er believes in this whatsoever. Jesus did it all, He alone saved us the day we believed, and is saving us now as well, a salvation than cannot be lost.
So, for the record, people can call me LS all they desire, but I am saved solely by the work of Christ, alone, freely, and believe that evidence of conversion is not only biblical, but necessary because it is biblical. All LS'ers are falsely accused of a works gospel as witnessed in the provided site.
I disagree here for obvious reasons -- there is nothing separate between the internal event and walking with Jesus as that is where it all began and continues - in the inner man, note Ephesians 3:16. It is the internal man that walks with Him in and since that event and saving process He began.
I agree here but sense the old conflate evidence with works error. Of course it is all to His glory, Philippians 2:12-13.
Evidence of salvation is not a works gospel, nor do any LS'ers believe they have to do a thing to get into heaven other than be truly saved by the grace of God in Christ. As soon as one shows Scripture proving this the false accusations roll out.
The site was offered, and I read it and he is in error right off the bat. Sorry, but he is, and biblically he is way off track preaching that evidence isn't necessary, and condemning others for stating it is, while wresting them falsely as works salvationists. It's incorrect, false, divisive, falsely dividing the body with a straw man argument, false accusations and unbiblical doctrine. Galatians 4:19 may serve as a thought concerning evidence. 2 Corinthians 3:18ff also will serve this as well. The epistle of 1 John. Ezekiel 36:27ff. 1 Corinthians 5:17. Jesus in Matthew 7.
There are many more Scriptures and the evidence is part and parcel to the Gospel message.
Now, to set the record straight -- works do not save, do not keep saved, do not help save, do not assist salvation in any manner, yet evidence of conversion is biblical and is a necessity to show one has been born again. The inward change will have outward manifestation; A tree is known by its fruit. It is also evident by the production of the fruit of the Spirit which is both inner and outward in manifestation; Galatians 5:22-23.
Because of all of this I have to respectfully and biblically disagree that evidence of conversion isn't necessary and must reiterate that evidence is neither performance, nor is it a works gospel. This can also be seen in Philippians 2:12-13 how God works in us to doing and willing His good pleasure. These things are seen both internally and externally in the converted.
People word things in the way that they understand. If we are growing in virtue and are becoming more patient, kind, humble, bearing offenses without shrieking about how we were treated badly, etc., we ARE dying to self more and more. If someone has a problem with understanding the way I word it, and they say it differently and look at it differently, but they are are decreasing and He is increasing, and they don't like the wording "crucifying the flesh and its' lusts" but instead prefer "growing in grace", the thing that matters is not disputing over words but that it is HAPPENING.
Hi Stepan...Yes i agree, we fight our flesh daily, if not we have nothing to fight, we would be perfect in this life, that can not be, we have the evil one who is crouching at our door, ready to pounce, we have to fight daily, every minute, every second or else he grabs us, and he does now and then, and we fall, but thank God we have our Savior who has died for us in these moments, we all sin, we will sin, but we pick up our cross and follow Him daily...xox...
E
I like pauls words,
Set your mind on the things of the spirit. and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
We do not have to fight, All we have to do is set our mind on Gods things, and allow God to live through us.
The only time we have to battle, is when we allow our flesh to take hold. and try to fight it on our own.
Set your mind on the things of the spirit. and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
We do not have to fight, All we have to do is set our mind on Gods things, and allow God to live through us.
The only time we have to battle, is when we allow our flesh to take hold. and try to fight it on our own.
Okay, so present your thoughts nicely. We don't agree with you that the man has no fear of God. He seems to walk pretty consistently in love. That doesn't happen with a man who has no fear of God.
Phileo love can be found anywhere.
Plus, he's not a little boy anymore.
It DOES say those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. But as always, there are verses in tension to this verse. It doesn't make one verse true and the other not true. They have to be put together, taken in account together, and the weight distributed more where the weightier matter IS.
What are the verses in tension to the verse he gave?
Phileo love can be found anywhere.
Plus, he's not a little boy anymore.
It DOES say those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. But as always, there are verses in tension to this verse. It doesn't make one verse true and the other not true. They have to be put together, taken in account together, and the weight distributed more where the weightier matter IS.
What are the verses in tension to the verse he gave?
He quoted the same verse out of context. When you read the method in his post, he writes in his own meaning, which is eisegesis.
As far as sharpness is concerned, I was light on him.
Titus 1:10For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”13This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
Because he taught false doctrine, he was rebuked.
There is NO QUESTION this was false doctrine, no matter how one looks at it.
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E
Galatians 5
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
why can't people just look at the words, and just listening to the word, and just interpret what the word says.
Those who belong to christ, The people Paul is talking about
HAVE crucified the flesh. This is what they have done.
Since this fact is true, Then if we live by the spirit, let us also walk by the spirit.
Which is exactly what I said above, If we seek after the things of the spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
People want to make things so difficult when they are simple.
Jesus said he came to give us rest, not give us work.. Yet people want to act like living the christian life is so difficult and we HAVE to do all these things which are so hard.
They appear hard because people make them hard. Because instead of trusting God, they try to do it themselves.
There is no way to twist this, no matter how hard the workers keep trying.