Not By Works

[Magenta]

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[Meggido]

~Bill Johnson is regularly listed as an NAR leader. He believes in the apostolic and prophetic ministries, but says the church does not have any official ties to the NAR."[SUP][[/SUP]

They believe in latter rain and that revival will bring back Jesus, not the Gospel...Bill, Brian and Jenn have all stated this outright....We need revival...BSSM states on their website Jesus commanded us to make revivalists...no he commanded you to make disciples....We disagree here stones ad I will not break fellowship over our differences here...

revival is not making disciples it is making flakes for the cause that give Full Gospel believers a very bad name....

 

[stonesoffire]

[

QUOTE=FranC;3211153]You just said this in another post.

This does not abolish the Law...Mathew 5:17. It does give us a new way to follow it and to make our work count for something since it is for God that we work and not for man


So you are saying that the finished work of the Cross of Jesus Christ has given us grace to follow the law? I think here is the basis for our disagreement.

How is it the basis for our disagreement?

Grace Always existed. In the OT and in the NT.
God IS LOVE.
God IS GRACE.

Of course God give's us grace to follow His commandments.

But more than that, I'd say that in the New Covenant He gives us POWER to follow the commandments Jesus left us with.

The problem with the Old Covenant is that it had no power. As it states in Hebrews 8, if the OC had been perfect there would have been no need for the new one.

Men could not follow the OC. The Law was written in stone and not on their hearts.

The Law has not been abolished. It is still in force. God does not change His mind. Some here make it sound as though we only have to follow the Law if we WANT to. That's not correct. We MUST follow the Law. We cannot say "I'll steal and still be saved".

So what IS different is that God has created a new way to adhere to the NC.
He will be merciful to our iniquities and He will remember our sins no more.
Hebrews 8:12

Why?

Because God Father has offered His son to us. If we accept His Son, we are covered by His blood. Precious blood.
Knowing how much of a debt we owe to Jesus makes us WANT to follow Him, to be His disciples, and to adhere to His commandments.

In the OC, we had only ourselves to count on.
In the NC, we can count on the Holy Spirit to help us by allowing us to feel Love for Jesus for the great sacrifice He made.
And I don't man only the Cross. How about that He became a human for us? Could we understand what that must be like?
GOD becoming a MAN, just to help us know how to belong to Him.

If you want to call it grace, OK. But I see it as being much more than God's grace.
It's also OUR love.

[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
The Old Covenant is an agreement between God and man. The New Covenant is not so. It is a will of inheritance. Jesus fulfills the OT depicted by the sacrifice of Abraham in Genesis I think it is. Would have to look, it's been a while. So that is done and finished. With Him comes the new and living way. He sends His Spirit to His body that we might live and move and have our being in Him. Move with Him...and should be unified together as one.

Everything He has and is, given to us freely.

 

[Ariel82]

I don't know Bill Johnson teachings but if he is part of NAR or WOF, then it's a bad thing. Just like works based salvation and legalism, easy believism and licentenous are distortation of the true Gospel message of Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

They believe in latter rain and that revival will bring back Jesus, not the Gospel...Bill, Brian and Jenn have all stated this outright....We need revival...BSSM states on their website Jesus commanded us to make revivalists...no he commanded you to make disciples....We disagree here stones ad I will not break fellowship over our differences here...

revival is not making disciples it is making flakes for the cause that give Full Gospel believers a very bad name....

They believe in the apostolic movement which is characterized by the 5 fold ministry. Also is scriptural. And they do believe "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. This is labeled dominionism. Not entirely sure what all this entails.

The quote I posted is from Wikipedia. Latter rain is older....comes with the manifested Sons movement.

I go right down the middle...which means I will listen...but I have my own thoughts.

And I saw nothing about revival bringing back Jesus. Never heard that anywhere.

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't know Bill Johnson teachings but if he is part of NAR or WOF, then it's a bad thing. Just like works based salvation and legalism, easy believism and licentenous are distortation of the true Gospel message of Christ.

Ariel can you really describe what each of these movements believe? without gossip.

 

[stonesoffire]

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put me in timeout Magenta...looks good.

 

[Magenta]

put me in timeout Magenta...looks good.

I was just craving a sweet when my boss walked into the lunchroom with a box of goodies

 

[BillG]

Works of the flesh is evil works conjured up by man and manifest bodily (quite often by religious ordnances)...the good spiritual works are also manifest bodily, ...Paul said to be perfect in spirit, soul, and body....therefore positional righteousness is confusion and vanity, whereas good works via manifest reality is the whole body being directed by the inner man whose heart is pure towards God, being subject to the Spirit of the Law, thus established therein, and ruling over his own members as God told Cain to do...............be blessed

I don't care how many buses you own
Or the size of your sanctuary
Doesn't matter how steep
Your steeple is, if it's sittin' on a cemetery

I don't care if you pave your parking lot
Or put pads upon your pews
What good is a picture perfect stage
If you're missin' all the cues

I don't care if your pastor is super powered
And your program's always new
What you need is love and truth
And men are gonna come to you

It doesn't matter if you know the Bible
If it's all just in your head
But the thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?

Do you love your wife?
For her and for and for your children
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?

Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?

I don't care if you pray for miracles
I don't care if you speak with tongues
I don't care if you've said you love Me
In every song you've sung

It doesn't matter if your sacrifice of praise
Is loud enough to raise the dead
The thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?

Do you love your wife?
With all you've got inside you
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?

Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?

Lord, when were you a prisoner
But we did not come to you
When was it that we saw you sick
That we didn't follow through

Every time you turned your head
And pretended not to see
When you did it not to the least of these
You did it not to Me

Don Francisco

 

[stonesoffire]

Anyone who believes in the grace of God in Christ is going to be labelled by others that believe they must do things to remain saved as being false and thus be "labelled" in order to ostracize them and demean the message of Christ's work.

It's just part of the religious mind. It's best to just ignore them and leave them in the hands of the Lord.

I really wish I could Bruce, but I have this ingrained sense of injustice everytime I see someone being misrepresented.

 

[willybob]

Faith plus works to EARN SALVATION OR KEEP IT is a false gospel.

Works after having been born again is a natural outflow of God's love and A FRUIT OF BEING SAVED.

However, people can still be saved and not yet display any fruit besides being sealed by the Holy spirit.

Why is that so hard to understand?

you fail to understand that a saving faith IS A work....Jesus said to the church that was in sin in Revelation, to go back and do their first works......obedience to the truth is our first work via the baptism of repentance...a faith with out works is a devils faith, but at least they have sense enough to tremble, some have the faith of devils and don't even blush, let alone tremble....be blessed

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel can you really describe what each of these movements believe? without gossip.

NAR is used by Peter Wagner. I would have to find out who coined WOF...I can find quotes that illustrate false doctrines from people who claim the title that I disagree with.

For example Joseph Prince is WOF and teaches sow money to reap a harvest of money that is false prosperity teaching,

the bible does teach prosperity but it's not about money and earthy wealth (private jets, million dollar manisons, etc) but spiritual wealth and having more than enough to live and bless others.

 

[JIMBO43]

two Hershey bars certainly satisfied my craving..

would that be a heresey bar lol

 

[BillG]

you fail to understand that a saving faith IS A work....Jesus said to the church that was in sin in Revelation, to go back and do their first works......obedience to the truth is our first work via the baptism of repentance...a faith with out works is a devils faith, but at least they have sense enough to tremble, some have the faith of devils and don't even blush, let alone tremble....be blessed

I would be interested to what you think about go back their first works and what those works are.
In terms of how you interpret those works and the reasons why given your study.
First work via baptism of repentance?

 

[JIMBO43]

1 Corinthians 1:31 ►
New International Version
Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."

how do you know tho when im boasting im not thanful to the lord too tho

 

[Grace777x70]

They believe in the apostolic movement which is characterized by the 5 fold ministry. Also is scriptural. And they do believe "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. This is labeled dominionism. Not entirely sure what all this entails.

The quote I posted is from Wikipedia. Latter rain is older....comes with the manifested Sons movement.

I go right down the middle...which means I will listen...but I have my own thoughts.

And I saw nothing about revival bringing back Jesus. Never heard that anywhere.

Neither have I heard anything like this before - "bringing back Christ by what we do". I was in that church for a whole month and never heard that. It was full of the life of Christ being manifested.

What happens is that there are slanderous people that dis-agree with some aspect of what someone says.

I never knew how much foulness there is in the body of Christ until I came to this website and saw what these so-called Christians do to others in the body of Christ.

It is a product of all this legalistic teaching and preaching that nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

These types of behavior are no more different then those that blatantly live a homosexual lifestyle. They are in the same lists as works of the flesh. In some of their religions - these would send them to hell.

Thank God for the gospel of the grace of God in Christ!

And I was shocked to see that some of them label themselves as pastors. I was thoroughly shocked but then I can see now why the church is in the mess that it is in when you look at the natural aspect of things.

But the Lord is changing all of that and is revealing His love and grace to those that have ears to hear.

Abba Father - give us ears to hear and eyes to see! We need to see Jesus our Lord! Grant unto all of us repentance!

 

[willybob]

If this were true, all apostate rebellion would cease, because the goodness of the Lord is everywhere.

what they fail to understand is that the rebellion is broken in a season of godly sorrow in the baptism of repentance, (2 Cor. 7-10,11). If not it will NEVER be broken....be blessed

 

[stonesoffire]

NAR is used by Peter Wagner. I would have to find out who coined WOF...I can find quotes that illustrate false doctrines from people who claim the title that I disagree with.

For example Joseph Prince is WOF and teaches sow money to reap a harvest of money that is false prosperity teaching,

the bible does teach prosperity but it's not about money and earthy wealth (private jets, million dollar manisons, etc) but spiritual wealth and having more than enough to live and bless others.

They all have a list of what their beliefs are on their webpages. There is a parable about the kingdom of God or heaven, not sure which right now, anyhow...it grows up like a great tree and birds of the air come and lodge in the branches. Those birds are not a good thing.

When there is movement going on in a church which mostly is called revival, but I wouldn't label it that...just Holy Spirit shows up in newness of power...things supernatural start to happen...the unbalanced, the tares.. whatever the birds represent...show up too along with those who are thirsty and hungry for God.

And there is where one gets all the strange fire and twisting of the teachings...

Not to say that there isn't strange leadership too...but not with Bill Johnson. I don't follow Prince. In fact I don't really follow Johnson. But, I've heard enough that Id love to be at his church. Is just too far away.

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you for the link. This website is not addressing Acts 24 & 28

Paul could have been killed by the Jews if he didn't keep the law anymore. They had to bare false witness against him.

God bless friend

So you are saying that Paul kept the law in order to appease the Jews and save his life? Do you believe that the keeping the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations in the OT is binding on Christians under the New Covenant?

 

[Grace777x70]

I really wish I could Bruce, but I have this ingrained sense of injustice everytime I see someone being misrepresented.

I know. It's the same thing as seeing someone murder your brother or sister in front of your eyes. Father we need your grace.

It's atrocious behavior and they excuse it under the disguise of " defending the truth" but they are really "defending their own church beliefs" and if someone touches one of their "sacred cows" - the fur will fly and they feel it is their right now to slander them.

It is ungodly behavior.

The truth is no one minister nor denomination has all the truth in any area. We are only scratching the surface of what Christ has already done for us.