Not By Works
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To tell you the truth brother - I am not interested in any gossip of those in the body of Christ. I listen to what the actual "horse" themselves say "now" and judge from there as I listen to the Holy Spirit within me.
Sometimes I hear - "that is not entirely accurate....there is an element missing that is needed in order to get a fuller understanding of it".
I am well acquainted with the Pentecostal religion. I was in it for decades and there are some very loving people that love Jesus in it but there is also IMO some error too as there is in every denomination but I will leave that in the Lord's hands.
In saying that - I have never found a minister that I believe in everything that they have said on every subject. I pray that the Lord reveals more of Himself to me so that in 5 years I will believe differently then what I do now with the understanding I do have now in the Lord.
Let's just leave it at that....
This is not gossip Bruce....its fact...check it out on their website.....and yeah we will leave at this...blessings bro
Sorry. The only dude I recognize there is this guy!
[video=youtube;GGU1P6lBW6Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGU1P6lBW6Q[/video]
The scriptures speak for themselves......and both speak to the positioning of GRACE...BY FAITH we are saved, justified, seald and in the POSITIONING OF GRACE as opposed to be CONDEMNED.....
IN the GRACE YOU ARE
INTO this grace which WE NOW STAND
In the grace YOU ARE, having been saved out of faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of GOD, not of works lest any man should boast.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
When I got off the bus from the airport for Marine boot camp there were about 100 sets of yellow foot prints...we were to stand in those foot prints....the same is true above...because of being justified by faith we are NOW standing in GRACE and because of faith we are now IN GRACE.....
Rather simple concept at the end of the day.....!
Listening from a horses mouth named, Bill, is how you got deceived and did not know until now he does not share your OSAS beliefs....any OSAS believer knows and usually stays away from the Assemblies of this one point alone and many others....
I am dropping it grace but stop being clever and trying to paint me as someone that I am because you got caught with your pants down....and talking out of both sides of your face....
Own it grace and stop being clever...
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Ariel82
Guest
We stand upon the Rock, who is Christ Jesus.,,,i don't see those stating that grace is positional.
Have a safe trip.
Verb tense, verbiage, the words eternal, everlasting, promises of God etc.................................................................!
POSITIONING>>>>>>>>>
In the grace YOU ARE, having been saved out of faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of GOD, not of works lest any man should boast.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
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I don't know exactly what it is myself but one thing I do know.
Listen from the mouth of the "horse" themselves to hear exactly what they are saying and not from what others say about it.
We know how others can take something that is said out of the context it was said in and completely make something else out of it.
And sometimes - others even knowing exactly what is being said and they are representing it accurately - they still can dis-agree but do it in a way that is not slandering the other person nor do it in malice.
I believe this type of dis-agreement is healthy for the body of Christ.
Then there are those that deceitfully continue to mis-represent what is really being said even after showing them the truth - these types are to be avoided as they are filled with the leaven of malice.
That post you are referring was spoken in a general way that we should view what is being said about others and was not in reference to you.
I have said the very same thing for over a year and 1/2 now. Where you on CC before under a different name?
As I said before many times - I don't believe what every minister says about every subject.
I have not heard Bill Johnson or the other leadership in Bethel say that one can lose their salvation in Christ. In may be that in the past some time they did say that but I am saying I never heard it.
If they did - I would ignore it and listen to what the Spirit was saying that is true in the rest of what they were teaching. You know...eat the hay and spit out the sticks.
There are some here on CC that do not share my beliefs in tongues but we share the gospel of the grace of Christ together. I will not slander them for not believing in tongues the way I do.
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Ariel82
Guest
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God. 3Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God. 3Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Why would you like NOT KNOWING when YOU CAN KNOW FOR SURE.............
BILL------->These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
when anyone meets Jesus, no one is doing own work, it is a work of praise. For those who
say I used to try so hard does not mean that is what everyone is doing, that is the meaning
of projection.
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Ariel82
Guest
◄ Ephesians 2:8 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Berean Study Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Berean Study Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Here is a post about Ephesians 2:8-9 that has spoken to me of the completed work of Christ for us.
Quote:
Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The Believer's Study Bible writes that...
The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English.
The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation).
This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...
Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something.
In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense.
The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results.
The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.”
Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms.
(Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)
Here is the link from a former member's post.
Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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Ariel82
Guest
You can discuss that grace may be positional from Romans 5...Ephesians 2...not so much.
What exactly is this "grace in which we stand"? And what is the "hope of the glory of God"?
What exactly is this "grace in which we stand"? And what is the "hope of the glory of God"?
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Sully
Guest
The problem with this debate is there is an unavoidable appearance that if you are taking the side of anything that resembles "works", then you must be saying that "works" are required in some way, form, and fashion to sustain salvation. This appearance can be blamed on the "works" side of the house because either you actually believe that, or you are not explaining your position in a way that is clear and concise and better defines what you are actually pursuing through what is known as "works".
I just gained 10 pounds looking at this post HHAHAHAH *almost*
We seem to have a problem with our poster here. Abiding isn't a position. It's what we choose to do if we want to remain in Christ. I'm not saying we do that by ourselves, but we're empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so.
So far, G777 hasn't shown any evidence to prove his "position" theory.
How can he claim someone said Jesus is a liar?
Here's what he's talking about, & it's obvious he hates it..... but displayed no scripture at all to dispute it.
John 151“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyonedoes not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
This scripture tells plainly that we live because we're attached to Jesus, the true vine.
Being "thrown away" plainly means to be separated from Christ. No Christ, no life.
Being thrown in the fire means thrown into Hell. Again, it's plain.
Bearing fruit is mandatory. Those bearing fruit are empowered to bear more. This shows the christian is expected to grow & mature spiritually, bearing more fruit as they grow.
This scripture is much more important than these others quoted above. Here's why:
1. Jesus taught it. That makes it absolute truth.
2. Jesus teaches Abiding in its completeness. No pieces, or one-verse wonders.
3. It teaches the truth about fruit bearing. It states fruitfulness is mandatory & what happens when you do & what happens if you don't.
4. It leaves no room for twisting its symbolism nor its message. That's why false teachers won't use it.
5. It states plainly that obedience is the fruit & proves we're abiding in Him.
6. It proves we glorify God by bearing much fruit, & in doing this, prove to the world we're Christ's disciples.
7. It locks in the meaning to properly interpret other teachings about abiding in Christ, so we know what the other authors are really saying, keeping others from twisting them to their advantage.
It's a wonderful scripture, showing us that God makes us able to bear fruit, & multiplies our ability to do so when we live by faith & walk in loving obedience to Him.
Now, that's real grace in action.
Two things about that verse jumped out at me that I had never really seen before (love it when that happens!)
First, every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away. This seems like...divorce. The branch was in Him but no longer is.
Second, that doesn't fill me with fear! He sometimes allows me to see the fruits of His Spirit in me. After a struggle, getting through it and remaining in trust - He allows me to see some fruit. Like...more gentleness, peace, more subjection of my emotions to their proper place in which I master them instead of them mastering me, etc.
So it goes on to further say that there will be pruning for any tree that bears fruit so that it bears more, which just brings joy! Who would not want to be increasing in these fruits/virtues? Who would not be relieved that He will prune them? Who cares about any pain of pruning for what will be theirs, for receiving what they really want - to be more like Him!
But I do believe that our faith is like a talent in the parable and that we grow from faith to faith.