Not By Works

[Lightskin]

Don't live a whole lifetime and show up to the Judgment as a thorny field with no fruit, folks.
If you do you'll only be showing yourself to have not been transformed by saving faith in Christ.
You'll be showing yourself to still be in your natural self--thorny and full of thistles, and not planted with the word of God.

You can’t imagine how far removed I am from your above description. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Lightskin]

And as far as the person who does not hold fast to the word of the gospel and goes back to unbelief, if that person refuses all efforts by God to get them to continue in their faith in Christ, God turns them over to their unbelief and they are not allowed to come back to faith in Christ. God does not allow it.

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[Finepearl]

i have many times

hebrews is about returning to the law, which states salvation can be lost and a person can fall away, requiring sacrifice to be given for restoration

the author is making a point, IF it is possible one could fall away, they could NEVER BE RENEWED, and even declaring it can be lost puts Christ to shame, as he would have to be crucified again,

the verses that follow, prove this point, the earth drinks the rain, brings forth herbs usefull for those who cultivate it (we call this fruit of the spirit, gold silver precious stone) but if it bears thorns and thistles it is reflected (wood hay and straw) and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned (but he himself will be saved even as though through ie, the fruit of his labor will be burned, as wood hay and straw, but he himself, near to being cursed, will be saved.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is clearly discussing those who have been enlightened and tasted the Heavenly gift of Holy Spirit. In other words Born Again. Would you say at the point of receiving the heavenly free gift they were saved? If so and ones did fall away would it not be correct to say they lost salvation? or became unsaved? The verses in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Paul's words at Philippians 2:12 I believe do not support the idea of OSAS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is clearly discussing those who have been enlightened and tasted the Heavenly gift of Holy Spirit. In other words Born Again. Would you say at the point of receiving the heavenly free gift they were saved? If so and ones did fall away would it not be correct to say they lost salvation? or became unsaved? The verses in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Paul's words at Philippians 2:12 I believe do not support the idea of OSAS.

1. Anyone who hears the gospel and sees its affect has tasted God

it does not mean they are saved.

2. the point is IF they fall away, it does not say they did, it’s a question

the answer is, they can never be renewed (re-saved)

phil 2:12 is about working out what God put in
if you think you can earn you salvation feel free to try

 

[Finepearl]

I believe that your previous posts are somewhat vague and ambiguous, which is why I asked you those questions, which you did not answer, so I will give you a second chance to answer my questions in order to get clarity on exactly what you believe.

Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) remain lost UNTIL later, AFTER they produce works and are saved by BOTH faith AND works?

Does living faith save BEFORE a work is done? Or does a work have to be done before a faith is deemed living?

I didn't answer your previous question because I felt my previous posts were far from vague and ambiguous. I apologise if they were not so to you. I will reiterate:

What I believe the scriptures say is that a living faith is one that includes works in demonstration of that faith. I thought my previous posts made that very clear. If one says they have faith and does nothing in support of that claim i.e. works in demonstration of their claimed faith, their non action would belie their claim.

Your Quote: Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) - How would you say a person does this? Do you feel some action or works are required at this stage?

 

[Finepearl]

Point well taken. What are your thoughts on Luke 4:31-37, specifically verse 34?

Please be more specific and I will gladly give my thoughts.

 

[Finepearl]

1. Anyone who hears the gospel and sees its affect has tasted God

it does not mean they are saved.

2. the point is IF they fall away, it does not say they did, it’s a question

the answer is, they can never be renewed (re-saved)

phil 2:12 is about working out what God put in
if you think you can earn you salvation feel free to try

My previous posts make very clear I do not believe you can earn salvation. You have clearly misunderstood what I and the scriptures I quote are saying.

 

[mailmandan]

I didn't answer your previous question because I felt my previous posts were far from vague and ambiguous. I apologise if they were not so to you. I will reiterate:

What I believe the scriptures say is that a living faith is one that includes works in demonstration of that faith. I thought my previous posts made that very clear. If one says they have faith and does nothing in support of that claim i.e. works in demonstration of their claimed faith, their non action would belie their claim.

Your Quote: Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) - How would you say a person does this? Do you feel some action or works are required at this stage?

Thank you for your further clarification. In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced, by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified because of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). Agree or disagree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My previous posts make very clear I do not believe you can earn salvation. You have clearly misunderstood what I and the scriptures I quote are saying.

No, I cant

if you can lose salvation you in turn must earn it

there is no getting out of that

 

[azamzimtoti]

Point well taken. What are your thoughts on Luke 4:31-37, specifically verse 34?

Ooh - ask me, ask me - I know. . I know.

 

[Lightskin]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is clearly discussing those who have been enlightened and tasted the Heavenly gift of Holy Spirit. In other words Born Again. Would you say at the point of receiving the heavenly free gift they were saved? If so and ones did fall away would it not be correct to say they lost salvation? or became unsaved? The verses in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Paul's words at Philippians 2:12 I believe do not support the idea of OSAS.

Please be more specific and I will gladly give my thoughts.

“Why are you interfering with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are ~ the holy one of God!” Luke ~ 4:34

The demon stated quite clearly that it knew Jesus. This Scripture supports my view that demons know Jesus, not believe in Him.

 

[Judges1318]

John 3 5-7
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’

Born physically once. Done, not undone
Born spiritually once. Done, not undone

People that are born can not have the historical fact that they were born removed.
What can happen to people that are born is they can die.

 

[Judges1318]

Where is that in Scripture?

Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[Bbrdrd]

then stop saying we are not saved by works, because you are making justification based on sanctification (christian growth)

then I will continue to believe you are trying to earn your salvation. Because you give me no reason to think otherwise

I'm not making justification based on anything but faith, you're misunderstanding what I mean by works to mean things like fighting sin and doing good deeds or something along those lines. Works of faith are not such things, though they can be. James' example is of Abraham offering Isaac, which is the expression of the faith that Abraham had. It is in this way that "works" are necessary for faith, but again this isn't doing good deeds or not sinning or works of the law or any sort of work in that sense. It is the expression of the faith, "works" of salvation would be things like the singing and dancing joy that comes with freedom, a generosity that comes with knowing that God provides, and other expressions of faith.

As for sanctification, again, what's the point of splitting it up since it necessarily follows faith? What is the practical purpose of putting these things in neat little doctrinal boxes rather than treating them as they exist within the Christian life with it all mixed up and messy?

 

[EleventhHour]

Hebrews 6:4-6.

Been there done that so many times.
Shall I find it for you?

 

[Lightskin]

Hebrews 6:4-6.

The Scripture states its impossible to be brought back to repentance but it does not say anything about God’s grace being illuminated.

 

[EleventhHour]

People that are born can not have the historical fact that they were born removed.
What can happen to people that are born is they can die.

Everyone dies.
That makes no sense.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Everyone dies.
That makes no sense.

I think he's saying your born again status can also die, but then that just a guess as he's all over the place.

Which would contradict this:

(John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

(John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[EleventhHour]

Hebrews 6:4-6.

Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

It is impossible to come to repentance, be born again more that once... it is a one time deal. DONE

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[EleventhHour]

but then that just a guess as he's all over the place.

Its called grasping at straws.

It is impossible to proves something that does not exist.