Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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So a man who believes Jesus can heal but has troubling believing he'll heal for him is somehow analogous to a person trusting in Christ to save them at the same time that they don't trust him to save you?
then doesn't it stand to reason that you don't know they have lost their salvation, either?
regardless of how well you may be able to judge their heart?
the way you're describing this, i wonder what you think it means for a sheep to 'wander off' then?
Jesus says His sheep will never follow a stranger - in fact that they will run from him. so it can't be that a sheep - one which He will be faithful to go find and bring home - becomes lost because they are listening to another shepherd.
what then does it mean? if a sheep wanders, we agree it's not because Christ has not been inadequate - yet a sheep of His can still wander, and if it does, because it is His, it will not remain lost, but He will find it.
i previously addressed how the NIV translation reads -- it's misleading. i shouldn't have quoted it. the text doesn't say 'because you begged me to do so' it simply reads, 'because you begged me'
i am no scholar of Greek but i can plainly see that there is no 'to forgive your debt' clause in the language.
then having called him, his lord saith to him, Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me,
((YLT))
Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
((NKJV))
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
((NASB))
Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
((ESV))
verse 26 is absolutely clear; the man when he pleaded/besought/begged/implored with the Master did not ask to have his debt forgiven. he begged for patience, saying he would pay it back. ((YLT))
Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
((NKJV))
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
((NASB))
Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
((ESV))
you are the one trying to re-write the passage to make it fit your view. the reading you favor contradicts Christ's own narrative.
i am not stripping context away, either -- in this very same chapter Christ says He goes in search of the 1 lost sheep. the whole parable is immediately in response to Peter asking how many times he ought to forgive, and Jesus tells him this thing in explanation that anyone who is His disciple is not like this man. this wicked servant is not put as an example of a person being conformed to Christ but to antichrist; a person damned by the kingdom.
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish!
(Matthew 18:12-14)
And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto Him!
(Matthew 18:34)
this man owes 20 billion dollars -- is he ever going to pay his debt from the shackles in the dungeon?(Matthew 18:34)
"9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" - 1 Peter 2:9
What I don't know is if it is past time for God to allow them to come back.
I don't know the mitigating circumstances by which God determines the amount of time he gives those who choose to no longer trust Christ (i.e. the Galatians). But they have definitely fallen into unbelief. There is no questioning that. And if they persist in that unbelief beyond the space God has or has not given them to reconsider they will indeed be turned over to the consequences of their unbelief.
Jews heading to the millennium. If you want the body of Christ, go to Paul’s epistles.
and having found, He doth lay [it] on His shoulders rejoicing, and having come to the house, He doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them, rejoice with Me, because I found My sheep — the lost one!
(Luke 15:5-6 ylt)
seeing that the trumpet has not sounded, and The Door of heaven so closed, i can scarcely believe Christ has finished rounding up His own and carrying them home yet. if this is indeed His sheep, He is the Good Shepherd - He won't stop until He finds them and brings them again through The Gate. (Luke 15:5-6 ylt)
it's my belief that this is the very thing that triggers the end of days -- when all His sheep are gathered. the time the Father has set for the Groom to gather His Bride is not an arbitrary one; it cannot be before all who are to be in the Bride are brought in, and He comes quickly.
if the world has not ended, neither Has His calling His own to Himself. ((imo))
I am sought of them that asked not for Me; I am found of them that sought Me not:
I said, Behold Me, behold Me, unto a nation that was not called by My name.
(Isaiah 6:1)
But I say, did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me. But to Israel He saith, all day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
(Romans 10:19-21)
that's 'a nation' singular in Isaiah, and Paul makes clear that He is not talking about Israel when He says 'a nation not called by My name'Peter speaks of the same thing --
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
(1 Peter 2:10)
so how can he be speaking 'only' of Jews? were they never before a people?
Purgatory
prison wages can be ~ 33 cents an hour. at that rate, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year ((giving some holiday time)) it should take over 27.4 million years to pay back 18.085 billion dollars in debt ((not allowing for taxes, social security & medicare etc))
@John146
((excerpt from Thayer's entry)) --
((excerpt from Thayer's entry)) --
STRONGS NT 2992: λαός
λαός, λαοῦ, ὁ ((cf. Curtius, § 535)); the Sept. more than fifteen hundred times for עַם; rarely for גּוי and לְאֹם; (from Homer down); people;
- a people, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language
Yes, during the Church age where there is no Jew or Gentile. God had cut them off.
Isaiah 6:1?
but Peter is speaking to people in the present tense saying a people/nation that was not a people/nation is now a people/nation of God -- not to Jews 'after the church age' . . ?
when written, it was either during or before 'the church age' ((deferring to your mid-Acts changeover)), not after.
wouldn't you need the church age to already be over when Peter writes this letter in order for that to fit the nation of Israel?
Translation according to judges:
God’s irrevocable gifts are revocable because Jesus’ obedience wasn’t good enough to help people weak in faith to the point of despair. Slaughter the weak lambs into oblivion. Let the purge begin.
And the person you once trusted will not forsake you even though your trust is gone.That action of trusting someone to save you denotes faith.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
So sad.. what a horrible, horrible dogma.
I have run out strong enough words to express my disgust at how they demean and devalue Jesus.
E