Not By Works

[posthuman]

Yep.
But you're still ignoring the plain fact that forgiveness was given despite the condition of the mans heart.
Then it was taken back.
Osas swears the Father never ever takes back free gifts in the kingdom.

again, the wicked servant in Matthew 18 is not a 'saved man'

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:19)
​

he is a man of the world, his trespasses not imputed to Him because of the reconciliation made through Christ, but who despised that reconciliation, and so dies in his sins.

we are not looking at a born-again believer being born a third time back into his carnal state.
we are looking at a man offered redemption and rejecting it.

 

[Judges1318]

That verse does not support his point.

 

[Judges1318]

we are looking at a man offered redemption and rejecting it.

No, the gift was not merely extended, it really was given:

‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ - Matthew 18:32-33

Stop making the passage not really mean what it says.
This kind of stuff is what got me off the fence about osas.
I realized that osas makes soooo many verses not really mean what they say in order to defend itself.
It's a joke.
I'm too honest to teach that dishonest crap to other people.
I can't tell people over and over and over again that passages don't really mean what they say.

 

[Judges1318]

again, the wicked servant in Matthew 18 is not a 'saved man'

I think he represents the 2nd type of soil person in the Parable of the Sower.

I know someone personally who received God's forgiveness for salvation, and who then received a gift of the Spirit, but who then later rejected it all because of the trials of life.

Because I know this person personally I know they did not receive the word in a good and noble heart, but they received it nonetheless and were indeed very much saved. I know what was flawed in their thinking and which eventually led to their falling away, but they were most assuredly saved by God when they received the Word of the gospel and asked for forgiveness for salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
There, the Bible speaks ~ Romans 11

....out of context.

Show me where Romans 11 is about a saved person's gifts being irrevocable and I'll show you where Romans 11 is talking about later generations of Jews not having the promises made to Abraham revoked.

 

[Judges1318]

How does a person not saved look to themselves to see if they are saved?

And this has to be explained to you how many times?

Honestly, I think you lack reading comprehension skills.
I don't think posting the scriptures again explaining how one examines themselves will do any good.

 

[John146]

....out of context.

Show me where Romans 11 is about a saved person's gifts being irrevocable and I'll show you where Romans 11 is talking about later generations of Jews not having the promises made to Abraham revoked.

And I’ll show you how Matthew 18 is concerning the Jews and their kingdom and not the body of Christ. No Christian is present in Matthew 18.

 

[Lightskin]

....out of context.

Show me where Romans 11 is about a saved person's gifts being irrevocable and I'll show you where Romans 11 is talking about later generations of Jews not having the promises made to Abraham revoked.

So in your mind the words, God’s gifts are irrevocable, actually mean God’s gifts are revocable. You must be a liberal.

 

[Judges1318]

So in your mind the words, God’s gifts are irrevocable, actually mean God’s gifts are revocable. You must be a liberal.

In my mind God's gifts and calling to Israel are irrevocable because that's what the passage says.
The gifts and calling of Israel promised to them through Abraham are not revoked for later generations of Jews even though their predecessors have rejected Messiah. That's what the passage says.

But this is what osas says the passage says: Once a person is saved they are always saved.
Wow, simply amazing.

Stop following these theologians who have been misleading the church for centuries!

 

[Lightskin]

In my mind God's gifts and calling to Israel are irrevocable because that's what the passage says.
The gifts and calling of Israel promised to them through Abraham are not revoked for later generations of Jews even though their predecessors have rejected Messiah. That's what the passage says.

But this is what osas says the passage says: Once a person is saved they are always saved.
Wow, simply amazing.

Stop following these theologians who have been misleading the church for centuries!

Once again the irrational proclaiming irrationality. If God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable to Israel, don’t you think His gifts and callings are irrevocable to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ?

Jesus himself states that everyone will stumble and have moments of doubt. God understands our shortfalls and iniquities but you deem His Word invalid.

 

[Judges1318]

If God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable to Israel, don’t you think His gifts and callings are irrevocable to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ?

No, because you're comparing apples to oranges.
For your interpretation of the passage to be correct, the Jews for whom the calling and gifts of God is irrevocable would have to be saved Jews who can't have their gifts and calling revoked. But that is not what the passage is about. Instead the passage explains how unbelieving, Christ rejecting Jews have not caused God to revoke the calling and gifts from later generations of Jews, Paul himself being proof of that. How is that evenly remotely similar to an argument being made that an individual saved person can not have his gift and calling revoked? It's not, of course.

Jesus himself states that everyone will stumble and have moments of doubt. God understands our shortfalls and iniquities but you deem His Word invalid.

Doubt and unbelief are two different things.
Unbelief is when a person abandons trust in Christ and goes back to the world (or to another perceived source of justification).
You can doubt and still believe.
But, obviously, you can not believe and be in disbelief at the same time.

 

[azamzimtoti]

In my mind God's gifts and calling to Israel are irrevocable because that's what the passage says.
The gifts and calling of Israel promised to them through Abraham are not revoked for later generations of Jews even though their predecessors have rejected Messiah. That's what the passage says.

Well, it's not actually saying that.

But lets assume (for the sake of argument) the irrevocable gifts are for these "later generations", let suppose these Jews accept Jesus are they under the same walk away scheme of yours if they walk away? Are they then unsaved?

 

[Judges1318]

And I’ll show you how Matthew 18 is concerning the Jews and their kingdom and not the body of Christ. No Christian is present in Matthew 18.

The 'two kingdom' gospel has been shown to be false.
The kingdom of heaven/God is the kingdom of heaven/God. Period.

Read Galatians 3.
There has never been a different gospel based on justification by works.
The Jews are the ones who misunderstood it that way, thinking it supplanted the covenant made with Abraham.
The gospel has always been the gospel preached to Abraham--justification through faith in the promise of a son.

So stop reading your two kingdom/gospel theology into the passages of the Bible.

 

[Lightskin]

No, because you're comparing apples to oranges.
For your interpretation of the passage to be correct, the Jews for whom the calling and gifts of God is irrevocable would have to be saved Jews who can't have their gifts and calling revoked. But that is not what the passage is about. Instead the passage explains how unbelieving, Christ rejecting Jews have not caused God to revoke the calling and gifts from later generations of Jews, Paul himself being proof of that. How is that evenly remotely similar to an argument being made that an individual saved person can not have his gift and calling revoked? It's not, of course.


Doubt and unbelief are two different things.
Unbelief is when a person abandons trust in Christ and goes back to the world (or to another perceived source of justification).
You can doubt and still believe.
But, obviously, you can not believe and be in disbelief at the same time.

So God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable to people who deny Christ yet His gifts and callings are indeed revocable to those who do place their faith in Christ. Good grief.

 

[posthuman]

No, the gift was not merely extended, it really was given:

‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ - Matthew 18:32-33

if it is the case this wicked servant was saved, on the evidence that his debt was reconciled in mercy, then the whole word is equally called saved, because:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself,​

not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

(2 Corinthians 5:19)​

​

​

if i accept your argument for Matthew 18 then the entire world had salvation and lost it, yet the church has salvation and does not.
so the remnant of the world, the truly born again, is once saved, and is always saved, while the world is once saved, and isn't always saved, because your argument is that being reconciled and sins not being imputed is tantamount to salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

So God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable to people who deny Christ...

Good grief, Lightskin, don't you realize he's talking about the nation of Israel, not unbelieving, lost, Jewish, Christ rejecters burning in hell today?

God has not changed his mind (repented) about the gifts and calling given to Israel by word of promise to Abraham, even though they have rejected Christ as Messiah.
That has NOTHING to do with a saved person not being able to fall away and be lost.

The promised blessing on the house of Israel won't be revoked just because some in the house are not part of that blessing because of their rejection of Christ. How does that even resemble an argument that once a person has the blessing he can never lose it? It doesn't, of course.

yet His gifts and callings are indeed revocable to those who do place their faith in Christ. Good grief.

Yes, if you remove yourself from the house that has the promised blessing on it you will indeed lose out on the blessing that will never be removed from that household.
Read the passage.
....without your osas bias.
Stop listening to misguided theologians.
Be a Berean, for corn's sake!

 

[Lightskin]

Well, it's not actually saying that.

But lets assume (for the sake of argument) the irrevocable gifts are for these "later generations", let suppose these Jews accept Jesus are they under the same walk away scheme of yours if they walk away? Are they then unsaved?

According to judges, we should only share the Gospel to people on their deathbeds so as not to give them enough time to doubt afterwards.

 

[Judges1318]

if it is the case this wicked servant was saved, on the evidence that his debt was reconciled in mercy, then the whole word is equally called saved, because:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself,​

not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

(2 Corinthians 5:19)​

​

​

if i accept your argument for Matthew 18 then the entire world had salvation and lost it, yet the church has salvation and does not.
so the remnant of the world, the truly born again, is once saved, and is always saved, while the world is once saved, and isn't always saved, because your argument is that being reconciled and sins not being imputed is tantamount to salvation.

The world has not asked for and received the forgiveness of God.
How is that even remotely similar to the man in the story?

 

[Judges1318]

According to judges, we should only share the Gospel to people on their deathbeds so as not to give them enough time to doubt afterwards.

Doubt does not condemn anyone.
Are you listening?
Unbelief is what condemns a person.

 

[posthuman]

I think he represents the 2nd type of soil person in the Parable of the Sower.

I know someone personally who received God's forgiveness for salvation, and who then received a gift of the Spirit, but who then later rejected it all because of the trials of life.

Because I know this person personally I know they did not receive the word in a good and noble heart, but they received it nonetheless and were indeed very much saved. I know what was flawed in their thinking and which eventually led to their falling away, but they were most assuredly saved by God when they received the Word of the gospel and asked for forgiveness for salvation.

you describe this person as a sheep who has wandered, and you express that the Shepherd will not find them, put them on His shoulder, and carry them home. is that a picture consistent with scripture?