Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Chester said:
"The text says the seed remains in the one who is born of God. It's right there"
Exactly! I agree! (I John 3:9)

whoever is believing has been born of God (past tense action with continuing results)
Exactly! I agree (I John 5:1)
Click to expand...

Then we're in agreement.

But if "born of God" is perfect tense (past action) and the believing is present, then the believing and the new birth were similtaneous, but also the believing continuing after the past action of being born of God. Therefore, it is a continuing faith.
 
Macabeus said:
DO you see what I am saying in post 96,612?

Born of God- Perfect tense- Paul is viewing it as a past action with ongoing results.

believe- present tense- Paul is viewing the verb as presently active.

Does this not indicate that Paul was speaking of continuing faith, at least continuing to the present?
Click to expand...

Not sure I am getting what you are trying to say . . .
 
Macabeus said:
Then we're in agreement.

But if "born of God" is perfect tense (past action) and the believing is present, then the believing and the new birth were similtaneous, but also the believing continuing after the past action of being born of God. Therefore, it is a continuing faith.
Click to expand...

LOL - I like you, but you are a master at trying to wiggle and waggle till you get the text to say what you want!

Why don't you just tell me what you want the text to say? I really don't know what you are after ; I am not trying to be hard-nosed. What is your point about - "therefore it is a continuing faith" - What do you mean by that?
 
Chester said:
Not sure I am getting what you are trying to say . . .
Click to expand...

This will be my last post for tonight as I know it is getting late.

Born of God is past action (perfect tense) verb

Believe is present tense participle.

From the perspective of Paul, the new birth was in the past. The faith that accompanied the new birth was also past, but he uses a present tense verb), meaning that while it was similtaneous with the new birth, it was also continuing into the present (from Paul's perspective.) Therefore, it was continuing from the new birth to the present. It is a continuing faith.
 
Chester said:
LOL - I like you, but you are a master at trying to wiggle and waggle till you get the text to say what you want!

Why don't you just tell me what you want the text to say? I really don't know what you are after ; I am not trying to be hard-nosed. What is your point about - "therefore it is a continuing faith" - What do you mean by that?
Click to expand...

The past tense verb born and the present tense participle believing is self explanatory.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ in the present has been born of God in the past.
Continuing faith.

If you don't see it, we can leave it at that.

Nice talking to you both. It's nice when people can disagree without being rude.

God bless
 
  • Like
Reactions: FollowHisSteps
Macabeus said:
This will be my last post for tonight as I know it is getting late.

Born of God is past action (perfect tense) verb

Believe is present tense participle.

From the perspective of Paul, the new birth was in the past. The faith that accompanied the new birth was also past, but he uses a present tense verb), meaning that while it was similtaneous with the new birth, it was also continuing into the present (from Paul's perspective.) Therefore, it was continuing from the new birth to the present. It is a continuing faith.
Click to expand...

Good night - fun interaction . . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Macabeus
Macabeus said:
The past tense verb born and the present tense participle believing is self explanatory.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ in the present has been born of God in the past.
Continuing faith.

If you don't see it, we can leave it at that.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, now you are clear - got it - agreed!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Macabeus
Budman said:
Yes you do. We've been over this repeatedly.
Click to expand...

You ask this question, which I repeatedly have answered from my perspective.
I have told you my view on the nature of sin, our hearts, walking righteously before the Lord.

Now you keep on asking the same question as if I will answer it differently.
So my point is, what is your objective? That I feel a conviction, that I desire more deeply to
walk closer to the Lord.

gb9 clearly stated he believes he is a sinner, failed and flawed pointing to the Lord.

The traditional view is to take this position but believe we are cleansed as we confess.
What is also apparent is people replace real sin with imagined sin and failed aspiration
with which to beat themselves, and dominate their hearts with failure rather than love
and acceptance in Gods grace, lifting their hearts up so they can reach out to others in love.

So my friend, maybe you just want to repeat this process like the accuser of the brethren
repeating accusations over forgiven sin. It is ironic if ones belief system is such accusations
are from satan, and then one does the same to others. Where does that put you?
 
Macabeus said:
But inspecting fruit of another would be examining another persons fruit to give an assessment of it. Who have I done that to? No one. Therefore, you are lying and defending a lie.
Click to expand...

I never said you did it,

I think we are stating that you agree with the idea/principle that conversion in order to be genuine must bear fruit the logical extension of this position is .................. if we cannot discern fruit we can judge that person has not been converted.
 
UnderGrace said:
Well yes if you take the Calvinist view.

No one stated people save themselves...of course that is how you would interpret it.
Click to expand...



so do you disagree with the statement that people don't save themselves or do you disagree with the statement that the Gospel is the means through which God saves people?
 
Macabeus said:
rebuke, reprove, exhort, etc.
Click to expand...

Fruit inspectors inspect fruit to determine true regeneration and make a decision on its veracity...no where are we called to make such a determination.

We are called to determine who are false teachers, that is entirely different, this is an objective analysis of their doctrine and who their followers are.

We are called to rebuke, reprove and exhort, however this again is not to decide the veracity of their conversion based on how much they sin or do not sin, or much good works they do.

Two different things
 
  • Like
Reactions: BillG and dcontroversal
Macabeus said:
so do you disagree with the statement that people don't save themselves or do you disagree with the statement that the Gospel is the means through which God saves people?
Click to expand...

I believe as taught in scripture that people are capable of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ who is the object of salvific faith, God regenerates those who rightly believe and trust in Jesus for salvation apart from works, it is God's gift, we accept it.

Pretty simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BillG and dcontroversal
UnderGrace said:
I never said you did it,

.
Click to expand...

Post 96,450

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4823

I think we are stating that you agree with the idea/principle that conversion in order to be genuine must bear fruit
Click to expand...

Which do you disagree with?

a. Paul's statement that we are saved by grace through faith alone

or

b. Jesus' statement that our fruits and actions reveal the condition of our heart?

These principles do not contradict. Unless you don't accept the what the bible says on the matter. And I have explaned that this is what I am saying.

the logical extension of this position is .................. if we cannot discern fruit we can judge that person has not been converted.
Click to expand...

I never said any such thing. Show me the post number where I said this.
 
Macabeus said:
Post 96,450

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4823



Which do you disagree with?

a. Paul's statement that we are saved by grace through faith alone

or

b. Jesus' statement that our fruits and actions reveal the condition of our heart?

These principles do not contradict. Unless you don't accept the what the bible says on the matter. And I have explaned that this is what I am saying.



I never said any such thing. Show me the post number where I said this.
Click to expand...

Okay
 
UnderGrace said:
What is salvation then, a promise to be good?
Click to expand...
salvation is deliverance. its victory over the world the flesh and the devil. Jesus atoned for sins so they can be forgiven to those who enter the covenant through godly sorrow faith and repentance, clean vessel prepared for the master's use.

iam of the belief that salvation is not just positional, its manifesting in day to day life.

you are entering into a covenant relationship with God, and agree to uphold the covenant, obviously.

the beforementioned st. james says it like this, instead of using the vessel metaphor by st.paul or prophet ezekiel

James 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back