Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi,
Maybe words do not have the same meaning to you as to me.
You are saying I have not understood these sentences

"We are in the flesh. We still have the "Old Man", which means we will still sin. Yet, we have been declared holy, righteous, perfect, and sinless by God."

Bud is saying we are in the "old man", is actually in sin and still sinning, ie not cleansed, pure and holy.
He then says the uncleansed, impure, and unholy is declared holy, righteous, perfect and sinless.

Maybe I have miss-understood, but it appears not.
If we are forgiven, purified, cleansed, washed clean, we are not dirty or defiled or unholy.
Simple analogy, if as a child you come in from playing and are dirty, declaring you clean can be done.

Or being cleaned, and when clean being declared clean.

Now it appears to me, Bud is saying though we are dirty we are told we are clean.
I am saying this is not true, we are cleansed, and once cleansed declared clean.

Is there something wrong here in my understanding of the two positions?
How is this slander to any degree, please tell me, I want to seriously know because I have no intent to
slander or lie?

ok Peter. It is getting to the point you are unable to hide, He used the same line of excuse whenever he was being asked to explain something, I will tell you like I told him, You do not get to interpret words when it comes to other people. If your going not say THEY do something, THEY GET TO INTERPRET WHAT THEY BELIEVE!! (How many times have I said these exact words to you in the past?

Why do you refuse to answer peoples question What does in the flesh mean?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What amazes me is the lengths people go to justify evil behaviour.

.

What amazes me is the lengths people will go to EXCUSE their sin!! then attack others, and say they are trying to justify evil, when it is obvious they are not

 

[dcontroversal]

I certainly believe David would have went to heaven.

If a Christian tells a lie, has a heart attack and immediately dies, is that Christian lost?

Remember, the Bible says ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire. (Revelation 21:8)

It also says that EVERY MAN is a liar........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

seek after things of the spirit

vs

seek after things of the flesh

In this context. WHAT DOES FLESH MEAN?

Can Followhissteps, Justpassingthrough and GodandGuns please answer this question?

 

[GodsGrace101]

False... please do not impute beliefs to me...

God gave me a new heart, if I sinned all I WANTED it is 0....

but ya
if I do in fact sin

I am still saved

the ridiculous silly "sin all you want" strawman arugment i have destroyed maybe 15 times

two from you
this makes three

once you said you never said anything like that before


it ignores the new heart and desires God gives to His children

the Holy spirit

and ignores our Father who will chasten us

OK. Let's try to get our language straight so we could at least be speaking about the same thing...
Here are some explanations of what terms mean:


OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.



ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.

I believe in Eternal Security. What about you?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Get used to that. It's her forte'

Here is a simple problem. A man says, I believed Jesus and am saved and can never be lost, no matter what.
My flesh means I sin without break, infinitely for having flesh is sinful.
Whatever I do it makes no difference to God.

Something is being missed, that I have missed.
Saying a person could be truly evil in a social moral scale is the lie people are sensitive to.

In this discussion they want to be recognised they are moral nice people, with limits of behaviour,
love and care, and would not behave in an "evil" way.

I can see how flipping from theology to personal morals and offence could become difficult.

Who we are in every conversation can often be forgotten, but here it is, showing that they are getting upset.
I am sorry and I apologise if I have upset anyone here, please forgive me.

My concern is to know who we are, and what Jesus is offering through the cross and His salvation, and
what believing Him really means, because if it is the possibility to walk like Him, is this not good news?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hey Fran. If you no longer have the Old Man, why do you continue to sin?

I asked you first!

We still have the sin nature...
IT'S KEPT UNDER SUBMISSION to the Holy Spirit.
It sometimes still affects us....our thinking....our actions....our omissions.

I asked YOU if you consider yourself still a sinner or a saint, as the N.T. claims we are.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

seek after things of the spirit
vs
seek after things of the flesh
In this context. WHAT DOES FLESH MEAN?
Can Followhissteps, Justpassingthrough and GodandGuns please answer this question?

Paul is plain
sowing to the spirit is

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Col 3:12-14

sowing to the flesh is

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
Rom 13:13

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

 

[GodsGrace101]

Let me answer by asking....Do you believe any of the following fail? Do you believe any of the following? If salvation can be lost or forfeit then the following are false and it is dependent UPON WHAT WE DO and NOT what CHRIST HAS DONE or DOES.

I will never leave thee or forsake thee <--IF he leaves and forsakes ONE this is not true
NOTHING can separate us from the love of God <----does SIN qualify as NOTHING
JESUS will LOSE nothing but raise it up the last day <---IF he LOSES ONE he began faith with this is false
Where sin abounds GRACE abounds the more <--written to believers
Jesus BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the word of FAITH in us <--DOES HE FAIL
The spirit is BORN again from INCORRUPTIBLE SEED <---can it be corrupted
We are saved to the UTTERMOST and KEPT by the power of GOD <---What does KEPT MEAN
The GIFTS and CALLING of GOD are IRREVOCABLE <---is salvation a GIFT
God CHASTENS every son he receives <---WHY does God chasten his children, is it not sin and rebellion?
If we BELIEVE not HE ABIDES FAITHFUL....<---This was written to believers and includes the Apostle JESUS cannot deny himself
We are in the Father's hand and Christ's hand <---What can remove us....NO MAN can.....and did he pay our sin debt or NOT
We are SEALED UNTO the day of redemption <----I do not see the words unless, or if or but, I do see UNTO THE DAY OF
Why use eternal or everlasting life <---if it is conditional or losable....God does not mince words
When I see the blood I will pass over you <---Has not the blood been applied by faith, does blood stain or not
He entered ONCE having OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us <-----If losable this verse is not true, and would say TEMPORAL
ETC.............

Besides the above, and there are many more......Perfect tense GREEK verbs and Aorist TENSE GREEK verbs PROVE that salvation is an ongoing event with present continuing results from a past completed action. The only "SIN" that sins anyone to ell is the failure to acknowledge Christ by saving faith and exactly why JESUS said the Pharisees would die in their SINS because they had denied the work of Christ by attributing it to the power of the devil instead of the Holy Spirit.......MANY misunderstand the word repent and the implications when it comes to changing ones mind and agreeing with GOD....

DAVID was saved, speaks of his salvation in the present tense and the only thing that was severed by his sin was his fellowship with GOD...HE was a son by birth and that can never change.....Our Father can be mad at us, put us in the corner, whip our butts off and maybe even take us home prematurely based upon disobedience and sin, BUT HE WILL NEVER leave us or forsake us........FOR DAVID or anyone for that matter to lose or forfeit salvation THE above must fail or be false.

Regarding the following statement of yours...
Could you tell me if the following is a present tense or an aorist tense?
You said above:

..Perfect tense GREEK verbs and Aorist TENSE GREEK verbs PROVE that salvation is an ongoing event with present continuing results from a past completed action.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

OK. Let's try to get our language straight so we could at least be speaking about the same thing...
Here are some explanations of what terms mean:


OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.



ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.

I believe in Eternal Security. What about you?

i reject all of these semantics

im not here to pick a side


if you want to discuss Gods word we can


i also believe in eternal security but im sure we would disagree on what it means.... just like we disagree on everything else usually


to me if your security is not eternal

it is not eternal security lol

so that aside


ya i believe i am saved forever

kept by the power of God

 

[GodsGrace101]

i reject all of these semantics

im not here to pick a side


if you want to discuss Gods word we can


i also believe in eternal security but im sure we would disagree on what it means.... just like we disagree on everything else usually


to me if your security is not eternal

it is not eternal security lol

so that aside


ya i believe i am saved forever

kept by the power of God

Good.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Two steps are being put forward

The flesh is evil in and of itself
No one can follow Jesus's footsteps

Both these are not christian beliefs, and have been argued sin Jesus died.
Paul followed Jesus's example and calls us to follow His.

The apostles where clean and not sinful, and Jesus was fully human and pure and holy.

Now as far as I can understand any concepts these are bullet proof and foundational.
If one denies either or both, one cannot be a believer.
I do not know of a christian church which would believe either statement was true
but if you do, please tell us.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Good.

more than good....

it is amazing to be made new

given new desires (to desire righteousness and no longer want sin)

to be filled with the Holy spirit and conform more and more to God being confident He who began in me will continue until the day of Christ

and to know salvation is given freely by grace through faith an NOT BY WORKS

....

its the kind of thing that makes me really appreciate my brothers and sisters here who fight to give God glory

and not "take some credit" for themself

 

[PennEd]

You mean this is how your commitment is towards the Lord.


I know for sure God loves us and nothing will ever separate us from His love.



Not even the depths of hell.



God loves the world.



Unfortunately because God loves the world, doesn’t mean the world is saved.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16





For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is predestined to be saved, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JPT

Yep. Those that believe in Him have been reborn. A NEW creation, with a NEW heart. That's who we are talking about. That makes us His Children.

Even though all are creations of Him, only the born again believers are NEW CREATIONS which make us His Children.

So you are saying a person can become reborn, a Child of God, Spiritually reborn, become lost and made unborn again, come back, become re-reborn again.

JESUS tells us those Children that wander away and get lost HE will seek UNTIL ( GIGANTICALLY IMPORTANT WORD) HE finds them.

Why?

BECAUSE WE ARE HIS KIDS!!!!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Two steps are being put forward

The flesh is evil in and of itself
No one can follow Jesus's footsteps

Both these are not christian beliefs, and have been argued sin Jesus died.
Paul followed Jesus's example and calls us to follow His.

The apostles where clean and not sinful, and Jesus was fully human and pure and holy.

Now as far as I can understand any concepts these are bullet proof and foundational.
If one denies either or both, one cannot be a believer.
I do not know of a christian church which would believe either statement was true
but if you do, please tell us.

The gnostics....believed the flesh was separate from the spirit and sinned galore.
This was a heresy.

Jesus was tempted in every way as we were...physical, spiritual, soul,,,so that we could follow His example...which is one of the theories of the atonement, BTW...

So, yes, I'd say that your above post is right on.

 

[GodsGrace101]

more than good....

it is amazing to be made new

given new desires (to desire righteousness and no longer want sin)

to be filled with the Holy spirit and conform more and more to God being confident He who began in me will continue until the day of Christ

and to know salvation is given freely by grace through faith an NOT BY WORKS

....

its the kind of thing that makes me really appreciate my brothers and sisters here who fight to give God glory

and not "take some credit" for themself

Good.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

But does sinning in thought for example daily equal not obeying?

The Bible talks about people being obedient, so someone must be obedient! or atleast was back then!

hey brother

i believe not holding thoughts captive is also disobedience

temptation isnt a sin

but entertaining it even in thought is indeed sin and may effect our walk....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
Rom 7:5

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires
Gal 5:24

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another
Titus 3:3

People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--
having a form of godliness but denying its power.
2 Tim 3:2-5

If Paul could say we have crucified the sinful nature, it is possible to conquer such a thing and live to Christ.
It is the people refuse to believe, and are thereby living in unbelief.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

hey brother

i believe not holding thoughts captive is also disobedience

temptation isnt a sin

but entertaining it even in thought is indeed sin and may effect our walk....

(i believe the only one who was truly obedient was Jesus... and someone like job... had a clean heart and was honestly doing his best... God was happy with him before satan but we see by the end of it even job is far from obeying perfectly.... even if he does indeed obey)

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Yep. Those that believe in Him have been reborn. A NEW creation, with a NEW heart. That's who we are talking about. That makes us His Children.

Even though all are creations of Him, only the born again believers are NEW CREATIONS which make us His Children.

So you are saying a person can become reborn, a Child of God, Spiritually reborn, become lost and made unborn again, come back, become re-reborn again.

JESUS tells us those Children that wander away and get lost HE will seek UNTIL ( GIGANTICALLY IMPORTANT WORD) HE finds them.

Why?

BECAUSE WE ARE HIS KIDS!!!!

amen brother