WRONG again.....it does not say demons have faith...man you are nothing but a walking contradiction of the word......
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
WRONG again.....it does not say demons have faith...man you are nothing but a walking contradiction of the word......
This is the biggest farce and idiotic post I have seen in a while.....relentless provocations......hahahhahaha wow....I have to pull out the termology again....the above takes the proverbial cake!!!!!
Try again...not all things are written in the thread....I have had 4 legalists working for people message me behind the scene thanking me for this thread and it opening their eyes to the fact that works do not save, keep saved or embellish salvation......instead of judgmental lip service how about on your eyes to the truth.....
Yaaqob/James says:
James 2:19-20, "You believe that YHWH is one. (Deu 6:4) You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?"
Both times the word “believe” is used it is word #4100 - pisteuó: to believe, entrust, Original Word: πιστεύω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: pisteuó, Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o), Short Definition: I believe, have faith in, Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545
I think it is properly consistent with faith in the Hebrew language and mindset, in Hebrew the word faith is to believe and do
Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."
“faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
“faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.
Hebrews 3:3:18-19, “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? we see that they were unable to enter in because of unbelief."
It is seemingly in our modern mindset that believing is somehow separate from doing. I don't put my hand on the stove because I have faith it is hot. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545
I think it is properly consistent with faith in the Hebrew language and mindset, in Hebrew the word faith is to believe and do
Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."
“faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
“faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.
Hebrews 3:3:18-19, “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? we see that they were unable to enter in because of unbelief."
It is seemingly in our modern mindset that believing is somehow separate from doing. I don't put my hand on the stove because I have faith it is hot. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.” [/FONT]
So what....was Jesus born a son of God by the spirit or did he earn it by works........?
Yes, that is so true, and nobody seems to love to separate them more than legalists, while they look down their noses at others. God hates a haughty spirit, and the legalists have that in spades! It is quite sad actually. They know that they stumble and sin and fall in their walk, but when others do it is cited as evidence and/or proof that those others are not saved. It is hypocrisy plain and simple. PS~ I don't put my hand on a hot stove because I KNOW it is hot.
What are your works then?
What should we all be doing?
(Is it a mission to discredit that Calvin fellow?)
Nice try...no cigar Belief in God does not equate to FAITH in Christ and you can throw your working for drivel into the trash...James in context does not teach works based salvation no matter how many times you try to put a square peg into a round hole....
My Bible says this
John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Amen Bill....just another working for legalist yanking James out of context as well to push some law abiding, working for drivel.....
Here are the different translations and at the bottom I will post the root word and other verses that show why I believe it is about obedience.
John 3:36
19 translations render it is “disobedience” - 6 translations render it as “unbelief”
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."
English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Berean Study Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
International Standard Version
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
NET Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.
New Heart English Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."
New American Standard 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
He that believes in the Son has eternal life, and he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
King James 2000 Bible
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.
American King James Version
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.
American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Darby Bible Translation
He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.
English Revised Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Weymouth New Testament
He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.
World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Young's Literal Translation
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
“does not obey” is word G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545
John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
*Mosheh wrote:
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"
"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Good post! Are you familiar with J. P. Green. I like his translation for this verse.
The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
(Joh 3:36 LITV-TSP)
The word "into" is eis in the Greek. Thayer's unabridged work has it defined as follows, "εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit...."
It is not limited to being translated to "into" but in this instance it should be. Since it is our LORD and Saviors desire. It being so much He prayed for it.
That all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Joh 17:21 LITV-TSP)
Contextually He speaks of this through John throughout His Gospel.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:1-6 KJV)
Which is why this most commonly cited verse should be translated thusly.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into (eis) Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:16 LITV-TSP)
Amen! Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (not faith + works) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Saved through faith + works is not the obvious meaning of James 2:24. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous."
James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
Faith that does not result in evidential works is not a living faith, but a dead faith. We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.
Faith perfected by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, He was "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So after *properly harmonizing scripture with scripture,* we can see that man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".
In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.
I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Campbellites) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are actually believing in their works and not IN THE SON.
There is a difference between faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation and multiple acts of obedience (works) which "follow" and are produced "out of" faith. Faith is believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not defined as multiple acts of obedience or a check list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to *entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).*
The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Authentic belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works.
New International Version 1984 Galatians 6:7-10 do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.