Not By Works

[blue_ladybug]

Ever seen a bird of paradise? If God can make something that funny looking, He can certainly make a creature as elegant as a unicorn..

Well in this case,silliness denied because unicorns whatever creature they may be "are mentioned in the bible and so are real".

 

[dcontroversal]

Ever seen a bird of paradise? If God can make something that funny looking, He can certainly make a creature as elegant as a unicorn..

All over AU and Cali........especially Queensland

 

[Cee]

Here's an interesting thing.

This word that Jesus uses here:

Luke 22:14And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

Is actually the same root word as Matt 5:28 that Jesus uses about a sinful man desiring a woman who is not his wife for adultery.

Why is this important? Because it is often taught that "desire" is evil, but God gave us desires.

And they can be righteous.

As we see the same root word here used in a righteous sense:

Matt 13:17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

I don't believe "desire" itself is evil, but what matters is where it's directed.

In the instance of Matt 5:28 it's directed at a woman who wasn't the man's covenant partner.

But in Matt 13:17 it's righteous because it's directed at God.

Something interesting I wanted to share that I discovered in researching all of this.

 

[Magenta]

I DID admit I was wrong..in at least 1 or 2 posts... Now let's move on, please..

There you go telling me what to do again after just denying that you do that, repeatedly this morning in fact. I did see one post where you said something to the effect that you were a little bit off, and one saying you were mixed up about some things. I even responded by saying Lady, you were WAY off, and you have done nothing but argue with me all along. Maybe you should be telling me, not the board at large, or someone else, hoping I might by chance see it.

I DID stop talking about it.

​

However, you keep making comments on it. Now let's move on, I'm done discussing this..​

From now on, let's just not respond to each other, okay?

But you keep discussing it and asking me to stop. You have NO right to ask me not to respond to you! Or to anybody else! You responded to lots of posts before I even got here this morning, but as soon as I did, you were all over me, wanting me to stop. You did say please, once.
​

No, I suggested that He COULD have sinned, since He

was fully human.

I NEVER said that He DID sin..​

We already know that anger is a sin, but since

Jesus got angry, He did in fact have that sin. ​

 

[blue_ladybug]

Okay, M, I admitted I was wrong. That makes 3 posts now.. I'm sure EVERYONE here would like to move on, not just you or me.

As for me, I'm done defending what I said and why I said it.

There you go telling me what to do again after just denying that you do that, repeatedly this morning in fact. I did see one post where you said something to the effect that you were a little bit off, and one saying you were mixed up about some things. I even responded by saying Lady, you were WAY off, and you have done nothing but argue with me all along. Maybe you should be telling me, not the board at large, or someone else, hoping I might by chance see it.

But you keep discussing it and asking me to stop. You have NO right to ask me not to respond to you! Or to anybody else! You responded to lots of posts before I even got here this morning, but as soon as I did, you were all over me, wanting me to stop. You did say please, once.
​

​

 

[Rosemaryx]

It is a very sad and huge stretch to read Hebrews and take it mean that He was tempted in all ways that people are tempted.

This interpretation then goes to disgusting depth of twisting Christ's unblemished mind into the most disgusting mind that has ever been.

It means Jesus must have been tempted toward rape, torture and even murder, just like any number of Christians might have experienced temptations in their carnal life.

Paul states "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing" and "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit..."

Lust comes from sin, which produces lust, from within us, from within the flesh.


Jesus did not have the sin nature nor a carnal mind to generate lust.

Amen sister...It is the devil who puts the lust in ones eyes, and God knows this which s why Jesus warned us about these sins...The devil is the father of lies, he is the darkness, there is no darkness in our beautiful LORD and Savior, only pure Light...xox...

 

[Magenta]

Thank you. Are you really done? I thought you were before. Okay. Done.

 

[Cee]

Not to argue over this again. But to Love the Lord with all our hearts is a work. And remembering to Keep God's Sabbaths is a Work as well. They are both works Commanded for us to walk in by Jesus before becoming a man. These are two of the Laws God promised to write on our hearts.

It's not our Work in that God/Jesus is the one who Commanded it. It is not a filthy rag as it is not a work created by man, but by God.

When Jesus kept these two "Works", or when Paul kept these two Works, did they make them "filthy Rags" just because they were human?

I understand the argument. One might say of himself, "I love God of Abraham with all my heart", or "I honor God with obedience to His 4th Commandment", and some could construe this as "boasting of our works". But wouldn't it be boasting of God's Work and not ours? Wouldn't our works be "I feed random poor people"? or "Look at the huge building we created in Jesus Name?

We all have works, every last one of us. Wouldn't the question be: Whose works are they, God's or mans?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Food for thought.

Just so you know I wrote you an extensive reply to your other post to me that you may not have seen.

In response to this post though

The way I see things is this:

Jesus said APART from Me you can do nothing. So in a discussion about works this is where I think we start.

If I am apart from Him I can do no good work.

But if I am connected to Him as my Vine, as His branch, I will bear His fruit.

That's why I prefer the idea of after conversion being understood as fruit vs works.

Now in James he does use the term "works", but please notice he is using this as a conversion example. I will show you my faith by my works. He is addressing the idea just as I believe you are. That people who are saved don't need to have "works". But the truth is the reason people who are saved HAVE works is because of the transformation that happens after we are reborn in Christ.

So the question is why do some people have very few works than? I have prayed about this extensively in my own life.

I also believe Paul was just as baffled by this as many are today.

Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

1 Co 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,

1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn infants, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

You'll notice all 3 of my examples are written by different authors (if Paul didn't write Hebrews) and in different books. Why did I show this? Because this idea that people who ARE saved still need to grow up is all through-out Scripture.

So their immature behavior wasn't because they weren't saved, but because they didn't have their understanding made fruitful yet.

Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Please notice we pray for those who ARE saved. That they may be filled WITH knowledge of His will in all SPIRITUAL wisdom and understanding. And by this they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, bearing FRUIT in every good work...

As people GROW UP in who they are in Christ we shall see them walk in a manner worthy of the Lord.

But growing up in Christ is SPIRITUAL and unfortunately that's something we as a Body are still growing in so we don't see it like it is available in Christ. People walk out the revelation of grace that they understand. But that's why we must stress who they are in Christ not who they are trying to be. We don't want to have to keep going back to the foundation over and over, but building ON the foundation so that the work of God might be seen in their lives.

Like I said Paul was perplexed by this as well:

1 Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

So why do some act only like mere humans? We see a part of the idea I'm painting here in the proceeding verse.1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Bless you.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Sorry Cee, I ated your cookieeeeeeeeee... lol

 

[posthuman]

No one is debating that context is important, just that using context as a cover to twist the obvious meaning of such a simple verse as James 2:24 is a desperate ploy.

There is nothing in the context of the verse to suggest anything other then faith not being the sole issue on the subject of salvation. Nothing.

you never did respond when i posted earlier.

i know this thread sometimes moves fast and things are buried..

but DJ2 i want to hear from you since you keep saying this, that 'context' is a cop-out or something, and we should understand the simple, clear message of single statements: what is the simple, obvious meaning of Romans 4:5 ?

is the scripture set against itself?

 

[Ralph-]

The onus of proof is on you to back up your statement.

Please tell me how many moral works of righteousness I need to be sure I am safe when Jesus returns. I do know that Jesus took on all my sins (100%).

I already answered this. I guess you just missed it.

But anywho, the Bible says that the person who has no fear of the return of Christ is the person who looks like Jesus in this life. And it isn't a numerical number. It's if you are growing up into the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure-2 Peter 2:5-11.

If you're not growing up into the image of Christ and are still in your old lawless, immoral, disobedient life you can't be sure if you're saved and ready for when Jesus comes back. Only those growing up in Christ according to the qualities of the Spirit have that sureness of their salvation. That's why we're told to work, so we can have that sureness, and get saved for real if we can't produce the works of faith that show a person is saved. Remember, unbelievers can't do that. They can call themselves saved all day long, and believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Only the Spirit working in our lives growing us up into the image of Christ testifies to us having truly received Christ in salvation.

 

[Magenta]

It is clear...he drove the MONEY CHANGERS FROM THE TEMPLE....IT STATES NOTHING OF ANIMALS....exactly why people make the bible state something that it did not state.....

Starting at John 2:14 In the temple courts He found men selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and money changers seated at their tables. So He made a whip out of cords and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle. He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those selling doves He said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn My Father’s house into a marketplace!”

 

[posthuman]

I already answered this. I guess you just missed it.

But anywho, the Bible says that the person who has no fear of the return of Christ is the person who looks like Jesus in this life. And it isn't a numerical number. It's if you are growing up into the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure-2 Peter 2:5-11.

If you're not growing up into the image of Christ and are stagnate in your old lawless, immoral, disobedient life you can't be sure if you're saved and ready for when Jesus comes back. Only those growing up in Christ according to the qualities of the Spirit have that sureness of their salvation. That's why we're told to work, so we can have that sureness, and get saved for real if we can't produce the works of faith that show a person is saved. Remember, unbelievers can't do that. They can call themselves saved all day long, and believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Only the Spirit working in our lives growing us up into the image of Christ testifies to us having truly received Christ in salvation.

Ralph you also never replied to me.

since "it is God who works in me both to will and to do" and "it is not by human desire or effort" then what you keep telling us is that Jesus needs to work harder or we're toast. i'm not the one who makes me like Him. He is. that's what scripture says.

do you believe He is faithful to complete what He began, or not?

 

[blue_ladybug]

For anyone who doesn't know what a bird of paradise looks like... The "smiley face" one is the male..

 

[posthuman]

I guess you just missed it.

It's if you are growing up into the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure-2 Peter 2:5-11.

yeah you also never responded to this, and i really would like an answer, since you are here to teach me ((?)) and you're telling me that knowing this is absolutely necessary or i'm going to hell:

excuse me but i noticed all your "lists of acceptable works" are "do not's"

do not lie, do not steal etc.

so ((mathematically)) i was wondering, how do i be "ever increasing" in "not stealing" for example?

say i didn't steal yesterday. presto, good work.
but my good work has to be ever increasing or it's not good enough, you say.
so today, i have to "not steal" even more than yesterday.

if i have 0 "thefts" yesterday, i'm not saved unless i have i have "negative 1" thefts today -- ???
i have 0 "adulteries" yesterday, so i'm not saved unless next month i have "-20" adulteries ?

what's negative fifty "not-covet's" look like?

((asking for a friend))

 

[7777pinacled]

Help with whose understanding?

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Did Jesus lust and therefore commit adultery or not? I say no. What say you?

Absolutely not.
Our Lord and savior is without any sin. Spotless, without blemish. Perfect.
I will carry on for hours, days, yrs, decades.

I just read the discourse you had with someone here and I very happy to read post from a person such as yourself.
You are a blessing.
All I was pointing out is that lust is synonomous with desire, and even coveteousness and envy. It did not go so well when cain envied his brother abel.

I only wanted to separate the word useage itself in order to help any readers who have not read and studied scripture. And also to offer more in the area for those who have been wonderfully given the Spirit of Understanding.

n general I only add that,
If any of the younger in Christ feels short on vocabulary, I hope to encourage all readers here that the scripture is wonderfull in this area.

 

[gb9]

yeah you also never responded to this, and i really would like an answer, since you are here to teach me ((?)) and you're telling me that knowing this is absolutely necessary or i'm going to hell:

a lot of folks want to lecture. not answer. it's been my experience that when one refuses to answer , it means one thing........ya'll can guess what it is. ( hint - start with does not..)

 

[Ralph-]

No one is debating that context is important, just that using context as a cover to twist the obvious meaning of such a simple verse as James 2:24 is a desperate ploy.

There is nothing in the context of the verse to suggest anything other then faith not being the sole issue on the subject of salvation. Nothing.

you never did respond when i posted earlier.

i know this thread sometimes moves fast and things are buried..

but DJ2 i want to hear from you since you keep saying this, that 'context' is a cop-out or something, and we should understand the simple, clear message of single statements: what is the simple, obvious meaning of Romans 4:5 ?

is the scripture set against itself?

Maybe I can help.

Faith is the sole issue for JUSTIFICATION.

You are justified on the basis of faith all by itself apart from works-Romans 4:6. But works are what accompanies salvation-Hebrews 6:9-10. Without the works that accompany salvation you are a barren field that in the end will be burned not saved-Hebrews 6:7-8.

Justification that does not produce works of righteousness in a person is no justification at all. That person is still unjustified and lost and will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Works of righteousness are how you know that you have truly been justified apart from works in Christ through the forgiveness of sin-Luke 7:47-50.

 

[posthuman]

Only the Spirit working in our lives growing us up into the image of Christ testifies to us having truly received Christ in salvation.

why are you putting the onus on me to work and to grow if it is "only the Spirit working" in us and growing us that has any value?
ain't that tongue forked?

'having begun in the Spirit am i perfected by the flesh?'

 

[UnderGrace]

Who declares a person justified?

So you are saying God declares a person justified but somehow HE has made a mistake because the person has no works to show for it?

Justification that does not produce works of righteousness in a person is no justification at all.

Maybe I can help.

Faith is the sole issue for JUSTIFICATION.

You are justified on the basis of faith all by itself apart from works-Romans 4:6. But works are what accompanies salvation-Hebrews 6:9-10. Without the works that accompany salvation you are a barren field that in the end will be burned not saved-Hebrews 6:7-8.

Justification that does not produce works of righteousness in a person is no justification at all. That person is still unjustified and lost and will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Works of righteousness are how you know that you have truly been justified apart from works in Christ through the forgiveness of sin-Luke 7:47-50.