Not By Works

[followjesus]

This is true.

The Kingdom of God is a real Kingdom.
It has Laws.
God expects us to keep them.

If I want to live in New York, I have to follow the Laws of New York.
Ditto for the Kingdom of God.

Also, do we here understand that as SONS OF GOD, He expects MORE from us, not less...

Who would you expect more from:
A Son
or
An employee?

Who would you be more disappointed with if he let you down?
§A son
or
An employee?

A son, of course.

and who is willing to give more a Son who Loves His Father, or an employee who does what He does 8 hours a day for a paycheck ? Who is more likely to grumble over a condition made By either His Father, or His boss? shall we be a spoiled son who expects it all and refuses to give in return who refuses to Hinor His Father ? or an employee who expects just what He is owed and doesnt give more than what is required to earn that money and has no thought of honoring His Boss beyond His rewuired role at the workplace and talks behind His bosses back ?

 

[followjesus]

Salvation is a process, and none of us have the same time table of its working out in our life.

salvation is a process and while we do have a different " time table" the process is the same for all of us. and the timetable is already set By the Lord. today is the day of salvation. the time is now

2 corinthians 6:We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left.


soccoured = I have given you the aid or assistance you required" I have helped you, strengthened you, made you able.

 

[FranC]

There is no law where there is no sin. There is no sin in the kingdom of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you saying you never sin because you're saved??
You're saying there is no sin in the Kingdom of God?

Then what is John talking about in his first epistle?
1 John 1:6-10

Why would we need to confess sin, as John states, if we have no sin??
John goes so far as to say that if we say we have no sin, we make Jesus to be a liar.



1 John 1:6-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[FranC]

who appoint me your teacher. take that up with your teacher.

Maybe you don't know the difference?
You should find out.

BTW, I know the difference.
It would be nice to know if YOU know the difference.

Did you actually think I was asking you to teach me something???

 

[FranC]

Yep...the nly problem with getting the message of salvation wrong is hell to pay!!

1 gospel of salvation...not 2, 3 or 50

You're doing it again Dcon.

Apparently you're a person of the book (like Muslims).
You believe your doctrine saves you. Which is why you keep saying there is only one gospel.

I believe JESUS saves me.
If YOU have the gospel wrong, I believe God is a just God and your love for Him and belief in His Son will save you.

However, for those reading along, yes, it's important to get the gospel right so that we could live the way Jesus would have us to live.

How do you reconcile these two statements?
Romans 8:1 (of course everyone should keep reading down to verse 13 but some don't like to)

and

John 15:6
John 5:28.29


In Romans it is Paul speaking.
In John it is Jesus speaking.

Could it be that Jesus did not reveal HIS OWN TRUTH to Paul??
If you think Jesus revealed the truth to Paul, then you DO have to reconcile these two statements.

 

[FranC]

Gal 6:2 Practice carrying each other's burdens. In this way you will fulfill the law of the Messiah.

Looking at the Greek, I get a picture of someone under a heavy burden or weight. Like sin consciousness will produce in one rather than righteousness thinking. So in meekness of spirit and much patience, teach truth. Help lift the weight off. That's looking at the preceding scriptures.

Am sure this this can be applied to many situations and is a way of fulfilling the commandment of love. Yes.

And what is the truth Stone?

According to what you've written above ---
The truth, according to you, is that we should have no worry for sinning.

You said we help to lift he weight off. The weight of sin.
Wouldn't it be better to teach that we should NOT sin?


Even Paul gave us a list of sins we are not to commit.
Romans 13:8-14

In fact, in Romans 13:14 Paul says to make no provision for the flesh and its lusts.
Why would he say this, if there is now no condemnation and we are not to think of the weight of sin?


Even Paul said to be wise in what is good, and innocent in what is evil.
Romans 16:19

You do seem to contradict Paul...
He is saying that if we LOVE, we WILL obey every Law God ever gave us.



Romans 13:8-14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves [a]his neighbor has fulfilled the law.


9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now [c]salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

13 Let us [d]behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

 

[FranC]

We are immature when first born again. We do grow, and we may whine. Babies cry. Toddlers fall, young men overcoming the lust of the world Spirit, and then fathers with ability to teach.

Is this what you mean?

Why do we whine if we love our Lord and wish to please Him??

 

[FranC]

That made me laugh! I think you mean "mailman" - Dan...

I thought she was accepting an Academy Award !!
LOL

 

[PeterJens]

Well, yes isn't that the point that some of us here making? They do have laws of cleanliness and they certainly are clean people. Just a result of trying to follow law.

That's what EG, Dcon, myself, PennEd, BillG, Limey...and so many others are saying here. It's an inward work and works to the outside.

Can't forget Grace777 and Ariel.

I am encouraged that we all desire to walk in holiness and righteousness with the Lord.

I am struck by the fly in the ointment, this desire to use words like "anti-christ" and trampling
on the cross, which suggests a two faced approach.

And when people come talking about walking like Jesus, it is a wonder how much condemnation
suddenly appears.

Two things come to mind
1. People are not walking like Jesus
2. People feel to suggest one can is to be a hypocrite

The conclusion is though people may say they claim to be clean in their hearts, or want to be,
this is far from their true intentions. When you talk about their real selves and feelings and reactions,
going through sins and their consequences one by one, it is total rejection and strong condemnation,
even suggesting such ideas are from satan and dooming the speaker to hell.

So I am puzzled by this contradiction, which demonstrates the comfort of knowing Christ and salvation
while not actually walking in it, so potentially living in deception.

What worries me most is the antagonism against simple believers, not because of who they are but
as if they are the most evil people in the world. That has always been a simple sin we can fall into,
believing we are right and the opposition are so evil, they should be sent to hell today.

 

[FranC]

Salvation is a process, and none of us have the same time table of its working out in our life.

Did you just say salvation is a PROCESS????

You mean, like SANCTIFICATION????

This is SO NICE to hear.
I've been saying this for about 500 pages now.
So you agreed with me all along and never said so?

Salvation is indeed a process.

I wish everyone understood this...

 

[FranC]

and who is willing to give more a Son who Loves His Father, or an employee who does what He does 8 hours a day for a paycheck ? Who is more likely to grumble over a condition made By either His Father, or His boss? shall we be a spoiled son who expects it all and refuses to give in return who refuses to Hinor His Father ? or an employee who expects just what He is owed and doesnt give more than what is required to earn that money and has no thought of honoring His Boss beyond His rewuired role at the workplace and talks behind His bosses back ?

Great Point!

Seems like some are saying that the Father has to do it all,
and the sons get to do nothing !

Jesus said that those who love Him will obey His commands.
That sounds to me like we're supposed TO DO something !

...as a good Son would...

 

[LoveGodForever]

God is so great!

Its only because God so loved us that he gave us His only begotten son that as we believe on Him we should not perish but have everlasting life. We only love him because He first loved us. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee because God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God is love and whosoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. If you love me keep my commandments.

God bless you all

 

[FranC]

The only comment I will make is with regard to the NC.

You say that the NC is unconditional but we must obey because God says it is, therefore it is conditional.
Not sinning and we are obeying.
please quantify and qualify?

The NC is unconditional. God will bring about its PURPOSE, to save the Whole world by sending His Son to atone for our sins and to free us from slavery to satan and the sinful nature, or sin nature. This is accepted theology. I never post any idea of my own. Jesus also had to come to allow those who had died before Him to have entrance into heaven since they had been waiting in Abraham's bossom. Luke 19.

The NC does NOT allow us to feel like we could sin. I know this is not what you're saying. If you want to think of it as a condition, so be it. We are NEVER allowed to sin in the presence of God. That is not a CONDITION. It's just the way things are.
We were not allowed to sin in the OC and we're not allowed to sin in the NC. Why would anyone ever think such a thought??
God is still God.

ONLY THE WAYS HAVE BEEN CHANGED. Only the METHOD has changed.

Quantify and Qualify:

Are you serious?
Not possible. Are you not a saved person??
Then what's the worry?



You say the NC is sealed by the blood of Jesus.
Therefore it's not sealed by water baptism.

No. The SIGN of the NC is baptism.
The SEAL is the blood of Jesus.

Baptism is the sign that shows that we are born again.
The blood of Jesus is our sealiing in the N.C. (not the sealing of the Holy Spirit as some suggest)


Who did Jesus tell to go and baptise?
If memory serves me it was his Jewish disciples.

What does Paul say about baptism. The guy who took the gospel to the Gentiles?
How many did he baptise?

There's a reason why you're asking this and I don't understand it's importance; however,
Jesus told the Apostles (11) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Teaching the nations to observe ALL that Jesus had COMMANDED.
Mathew 28:19


I couldn't tell you how many Paul baptized unless I looked it up...Many. Everywhere he went. And many spoke in tongues.
What's important is that he said that people were not to say that they were baptized in the name of Paul,
but in the name of Jesus.

Also, we'd have to say that Paul's first mission was to preach --- not to baptize.


You say Baptised in the baptism of fire. Not water then?

John baptized in water for repentance of sin to prepare the way for Jesus.
Jesus baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit. But water is used.


With regards to the bible verse you mentioned

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Doesnt say anything about empowerment.

What about Acts 1:8 ??


The seal of the NC is belief in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins based on death in the cross.
Its not sealed by baptism.

No. The seal is something God does to seal the Covenant. The seal of the N.C. is the shed blood of Christ.
God Always takes the initiative in any Covenant - not man.
We can believe in the blood, but we do not provide it --- God does.

Baptism is the SIGN not the seal.
You're confusing the SIGN and the SEAL.


Now I would say that truly out of this obedience will follow and WE LEARN OBEDIENCE

...................................................................................

 

[JIMBO43]

Did you just say salvation is a PROCESS????

You mean, like SANCTIFICATION????

This is SO NICE to hear.
I've been saying this for about 500 pages now.
So you agreed with me all along and never said so?

Salvation is indeed a process.

I wish everyone understood this...

And theres scripture to back you up...
[h=1]2 Thessalonians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)[/h] [h=3]Stand Firm[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[SUP][a][/SUP] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


note in this next scripture being saved can also mean a proccess of recieving salvation in this translation saved is replaced with a proccess


[h=1]2 Thessalonians 2:1321st Century King James Version (KJ21)[/h] [SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

 

[JIMBO43]

Malachi 2:17 The Day of Judgment You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you ask. By saying, “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

the workers against will twist this to say you do it automatically or the lord does this for you or the holy spirit convicts you to do this... funny thing throughout this scripture it is based upon the believer doing it for himself..

 

[PeterJens]

I realised something. Maybe I am stupid or something, but let me go through these ideas or expressions
one at a time.

1. We come to faith in Christ
2. We believe He died for our sins, and we accept forgiveness of them through faith and repentance.
3. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:30

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Acts 10:44

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:15

This falling of the Holy Spirit was taken as Gods approval of gentiles into the Kingdom
without having to be Jews.

Now my experience of the the Holy Spirit falling is very emotional. Knowing His love and
beauty and purity, being overwhelmed by the reality of who He is. It is this realisation in ones
heart which in its truth is emotional as an outflow of the truth hitting us, makes me wonder how
those who claim to be sealed in the Holy Spirit, cannot recognise this is largely a spiritual subjective
experience which we believe and feel is happening but is founded 100% on our perceptions and not
fact.

And all my precious relationships are also founded emotionally on my perception, in fact, everything
I hold dear is embedded emotionally in me. It does not invalidate these experiences which the nihilists
would claim, but actually how we know what is pure and holy and what is profane and evil. With a pure
heart it becomes clear, which is what people find hardest to face.

Pride is something people throw around so quickly. Until you break before the Lord and know ones
brokenness, we will always defend ourselves and claim our compromises are ok.

So interwoven are our lives, we find it hard to separate compromise from a walk with the Lord.

 

[FranC]

the workers against will twist this to say you do it automatically or the lord does this for you or the holy spirit convicts you to do this... funny thing throughout this scripture it is based upon the believer doing it for himself..

Great point Jimbo.

Of course it's US doing what needs to be done.
Some will accuse us of wanting the glory, or of self-righteousness.

If being born from above was really understood, there would be no talk of
self-righteousness !!

The Holy Spirit is our helper, but we do the work and the good deeds or whatever one wants to call it without getting
all bent out of shape. It is not a "work", it is a pleasure to do anything for God.

Did Jesus not do enough for us?
He went to the bloody cross.
We also want HIM to do everything else?

Jesus said we are to obey His commands...
He never said HE did it all.

I've been asking for some verses on this, but, of course, there aren't any.

Jesus did HIS part.
Now we do our part.

We obey Him.
Clear and simple.

 

[JIMBO43]

God is so great!

Its only because God so loved us that he gave us His only begotten son that as we believe on Him we should not perish but have everlasting life. We only love him because He first loved us. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee because God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God is love and whosoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. If you love me keep my commandments.

God bless you all

I do like this faith of yours you are a guardian in my book welcome to the club mr sabbath hehe

 

[FranC]

I realised something. Maybe I am stupid or something, but let me go through these ideas or expressions
one at a time.

1. We come to faith in Christ
2. We believe He died for our sins, and we accept forgiveness of them through faith and repentance.
3. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:30

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Acts 10:44

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:15

This falling of the Holy Spirit was taken as Gods approval of gentiles into the Kingdom
without having to be Jews.

Now my experience of the the Holy Spirit falling is very emotional. Knowing His love and
beauty and purity, being overwhelmed by the reality of who He is. It is this realisation in ones
heart which in its truth is emotional as an outflow of the truth hitting us, makes me wonder how
those who claim to be sealed in the Holy Spirit, cannot recognise this is largely a spiritual subjective
experience which we believe and feel is happening but is founded 100% on our perceptions and not
fact.

And all my precious relationships are also founded emotionally on my perception, in fact, everything
I hold dear is embedded emotionally in me. It does not invalidate these experiences which the nihilists
would claim, but actually how we know what is pure and holy and what is profane and evil. With a pure
heart it becomes clear, which is what people find hardest to face.

Pride is something people throw around so quickly. Until you break before the Lord and know ones
brokenness, we will always defend ourselves and claim our compromises are ok.

So interwoven are our lives, we find it hard to separate compromise from a walk with the Lord.

This reminded me of Mathew 5:3
The Beatitudes:
verse 3:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."

First of all, the Kingdom of Heaven starts right here as I'm sure we all know.

But who are the poor in spirit?
The poor in spirit are those who understand that without God they are nothing.
Isaiah 61:1-3

The Messiah will bring good news to the poor. Luke 4:14 --- Jesus reads this passage and proclaims it is fulfilled.

Isaiah was speaking of the persons who had been taken into exile.
They were poor of money
Poor of land

And poor of spirit. Opressed, powerless and without hope and desperate. They were both physically and spiritually poor.

People at the time of Jesus were in the same condition.

The Poor in Spirit are humble before God.
They realize they have nothing of offer, they have no arrogance
and no self-righteousness (which was rampant in the phariesees).

Since being born again is a gift from God, one must humble himself to accept
the frail nature of oneself and also Others.

Thus we must repent and allow grace to lead to conversion and sanctification.

 

[JIMBO43]

Great point Jimbo.

Of course it's US doing what needs to be done.
Some will accuse us of wanting the glory, or of self-righteousness.

If being born from above was really understood, there would be no talk of
self-righteousness !!..

they will and have.. they just dont get that its our are expression of his fruits...

The Holy Spirit is our helper, but we do the work and the good deeds or whatever one wants to call it without getting
all bent out of shape. It is not a "work", it is a pleasure to do anything for God.

it is writen that we are to praise are brothers and sisters and reward them too...you do have to realise also that your good works are 50 50...this is why we are rewarded and fall in and stay in favor with the most high

Did Jesus not do enough for us?....

yes His grace is sufficeient enough for you to produce Good works where by you do get some credit for them ..

He went to the bloody cross.
We also want HIM to do everything else?

Jesus said we are to obey His commands...
He never said HE did it all.

I've been asking for some verses on this, but, of course, there aren't any.

Jesus did HIS part.
Now we do our part.

We obey Him.
Clear and simple.

I think here lies the dilema.. there are things we must do for our selfs otherwise the enemy will trample all over us...

No 1 We must not let the enemy make us be angry.. we who are born of the first fruits must control our anger.. we will be credited for this