"Not by works" - false!

[jackrosie]

He loves everyone...but hates the sin in them..is that correct?

Can someone show me scripture where God doesn’t love everyone?

Why are we called to Love everyone if God doesn’t?

 

[Judges1318]

You are one the of more articulate posters ... but I have no idea how you have related Hebrews 3:6 to John 10:29.

John 10:28-29 talks about not being able to be snatched from the hand of Jesus and God.
Hebrews 3:6 talks about being of the household of God if you continue to believe to the very end, the implication being you won't continue in the house of God if you don't continue to believe to the very end.
So, obviously, you can't be snatched from the hand of God/Jesus, but you can certainly not remain in God/Jesus if you stop believing:

"24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24,26

.

 

[jackrosie]

[QUOTE="Judges1318, post: 4284196,
I have never said a person believes independently of God's influence.
We can't believe the gospel without God's Spirit showing us in our heart that it really is true, and God giving us loads of encouragement to place our trust in the gospel the Spirit has shown us to true.

I like this...makes sense to me.....

 

[jackrosie]

John 10:28-29 talks about not being able to be snatched from the hand of Jesus and God.
Hebrews 3:6 talks about being of the household of God if you continue to believe to the very end, the implication being you won't continue in the house of God if you don't continue to believe to the very end.
So, obviously, you can't be snatched from the hand of God/Jesus, but you can certainly not remain in God/Jesus if you stop believing:

"24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24,26

.

I believe we can and do go our own way...but as you say we can never be snatched out of Jesus hand..
I like this post as well...
I also think I understand what you mean,when you say we stop believing in him.
Because we are going our own way at times?..but the Lord never leaves us.

 

[Judges1318]

Why are we called to Love everyone if God doesn’t?

Love is, both, the desire to do good to someone, and actually expressing that desire to do good in someone's life. God wants to show mercy, for example, to any person, even his enemies, and so he loves all people that way. But he can't actively express that love to some because they are far from him and refuse his love, and so he does not love them in that sense.

 

[jackrosie]

Love is, both, the desire to do good to someone, and actually expressing that desire to do good in someone's life. God wants to show mercy, for example, to any person, even his enemies, and so he loves all people that way. But he can't actively express that love to some because they are far from him and refuse his love, and so he does not love them in that sense.

Well explained,Judges...thank you.

 

[Judges1318]

I also think I understand what you mean,when you say we stop believing in him.
Because we are going our own way at times?

We can go our own way while still believing in him, and if we no longer believe in him. It's when we have gone our own way because of unbelief, not because of weakness or fear or stupidity, that we put our salvation at risk.

..but the Lord never leaves us.

He will never leave nor forsake the one who stills believes in him, even if they are stuck in a struggle with the deepest of besetting sins. It's if you stop believing in him that he will indeed (eventually) forsake you and turn you over to your unbelief.

The phrase 'He will never leave you nor forsake you' comes from Deuteronomy 31. If you read that chapter you will see that he will never leave nor forsake his people as long as they do not abandon him and worship idols. If they do that, he said he will in fact forsake them (vs. 17).

 

[Judges1318]

There was no law in Abraham’s day.

Besides the law of circumcision, that is correct. The law of Moses had not been given yet.
That's why Abraham is such a useful illustration of how a person is justified by faith, and not by works of the law (specifically, the law of circumcision).
Paul explains that the law came after Abraham's justification by faith, and that the law which came later does not nullify or replace the way Abraham was justified by faith prior to the law.
This is all explained in Galatians 3.

The point being, the works that can not justify are the works of the law, not any work a person could possibly do themselves, including believing, as Calvinism teaches.

So to say works has nothing to do with the law

I find it amazing you are fighting not By works of the law only, when you claim you do not even teach works.

No, I didn't say works has nothing to do with the law.
I showed you that 'not by works' means 'not by works of the law'.
That's why believing in Christ is not a work of the works gospel.

That being true, there is no reason to insist that 'believing' can not be your believing, or else that would be you trying to save yourself through your own works. Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify, because believing in Christ is not a self-righteous work of the law. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Calvinism is wrong when it says Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify because God does your believing for you. Paul didn't say that was the reason. That is an erroneous conclusion that Calvinism has drawn from Paul's teaching.

 

[Chris1975]

Can someone show me scripture where God doesn’t love everyone?

Why are we called to Love everyone if God doesn’t?

Malachi 1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel [b]by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

The difference is in God's judgments which are perfectly righteous. Only He can judge righteously.

 

[Chris1975]

Deuteronomy 31v6,8 Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.” 8 And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”


Deuteronomy 31v17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured.

BOTH of the above verses are written in the SAME chapter of the bible.
- How can both be TRUE ?

The can both be true IF both are CONDITIONAL !
- What then are they conditional upon?

Lets see verse 12
12 Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law,

And what does Moses prophesy from the Lord will happen? Lets see verse 16
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and THEY WILL FORSAKE ME AND BREAK MY COVENANT which I have made with them.


So the condition that God will never leave or forsake the believer is conditional on the Fear of the Lord and Obedience. It is just as true for the Church as it was for Israel of old.

 

[jackrosie]

I fear the Lord ...obedience he chastised those who are disobedient..he did this to me an area....I ain’t going back to that place again....we have a personal relationship with God.

 

[mailmandan]

I have no idea how you have related Hebrews 3:6 to John 10:29.John 10:29 Commentary. Jesus strengthened this promise of security. He reminded His hearers that, because what He did was simply to execute the Father's will—it was the "Father," as well as Himself, who would keep His sheep secure (cf. 17:12).

"The 'hand of Christ' (v. 28) is beneath us, and the 'hand' of the Father is above us. Thus are we secured between the clasped hands of Omnipotence!"[717]

"The greatness of the Father, not of the flock, is the ground of [basis for] the safety of the flock."[718]

"The impossibility of true believers being lost, in the midst of all the temptations which they may encounter, does not consist in their fidelity and decision, but is founded upon the power of God."[719]

No one can steal from God. No one has superior strength or wisdom to overpower or outwit Him (cf. Col. 3:3). No one will snatch them from God (v. 28), and no one can do so either.

Excellent commentary! Believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:28) So it's about God's power and God's preservation and not man's power and man's preservation.

As I already stated in post #1,845 -- Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." There is also no implication in those passages about failing to remain partakers of Christ/of His house. So holding fast to the end is the demonstrative evidence that we have become partakers of Christ/we are His house.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ (just as we see in Hebrews 4:1-3) and the only ones in the end who will be identified as "partakers of Christ/whose house we are" will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[Pulie]

John 10v29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Premise1: NO ONE [no person] CAN SNATCH YOU [any Christian] FROM THE FATHERS HAND.
Premise2: Christ1975 is a person
Conclusion: Christ1975, being a person, cannot snatch any person (himself) from the fathers hand.
The logic is inescapable.

John10:27-29
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my father's hand".

In this text, Jesus is responding to the question that was directed to him by the Jewish people. His audience(the Jewish people) did not believe that He was the Christ.

He then gives a distinction between those he considers as his sheep and those who remain in unbelief after having witnessed the miracles performed.

Sheep
1. They listen to the voice of Jesus
2. Jesus Knows them(the sheep have an intimate relationship with Jesus)
3. They follow Jesus

They listen to my voice; they follow me. Notice that Jesus does not say I make them to listen to my voice nor do I force them to follow me. There is an element of free will in the preceding text.

The sheep listen , they are not forced to listen but they choose to listen. they hear a voice with power and great conviction and decide to believe and follow the Master. According to the texts, Jesus gives eternal life to the sheep that listens, follows and is Known by Him.

The description is that of a sheep that has a strong relationship with God.

Jesus
1. He knows them
2. He gives them eternal life
3. They shall never perish
4. No one can snatch them out

God's sovereignty and man's free will seems to be compatible when viewing it through the lens of the above texts.

The sheep cannot snatch itself out because it has made up its mind to listen and follow Jesus. The sheep also have a relationship with God.

The preceding text does not consider a sheep that does not listen, does not follow and does not have a relationship with Jesus. The Bible talks about those kind of sheep elsewhere and not in the above texts.

I also believe that "no one" was spoken in reference to the outside force( others, the devil etc) as opposed to the sheep itself. I believe "no one" has a strong connotation for the outside force. The sheep seems to be doing a good job lol and I know some people will say I am working, well if am working according to this text,then so be it.

 

[Pulie]

Where does the Bible say 'believing' is you trying to earn your own salvation?
Every time I ask this no one tells me where that is in the Bible.

Honestly speaking, the Calvinist doctrine of salvation is persuasive at a glance. It gives God all the credit but becomes problematic when one delves into it.

It seems like you have made a comparison of the two doctrines(Armenian and Calvinism)and have chosen to bear the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
No doctrine is without it's mysterious.
Initially, I found Calvinism to be persuasive but became problematic for me when I delved into it. Now I am drawn more towards God's sovereignty and man's free will.

 

[Pulie]

You're still not getting it.

God offers you the power and the ability to trust in Jesus. You are free to accept that power and through it choose to trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sin and be saved. And you are free to not accept that power and choose not to believe in Christ and be lost.

Honestly speaking, the Calvinist doctrine of salvation is persuasive at a glance. It gives God all the credit but becomes problematic when one delves into it.

It seems like you have made a comparison of the two doctrines(Armenian and Calvinism)and have chosen to bear the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
No doctrine is without it's mysterious.
Initially, I found Calvinism to be persuasive but became problematic for me when I delved into it. Now I am drawn more towards God's sovereignty and man's free will.

Thankfully, everybody here knows this.
Paul says believing is the exact polar opposite of trying to earn your salvation through works of the law.

Let me put it this way:
I am possessed with the gift of Faith that comes from God, therefore, I can't help it but do whatever it requires me to do. If that's the case, then am leaning towards fatalism which excludes man's free will.

 

[Pulie]

You are one the of more articulate posters ... but I have no idea how you have related Hebrews 3:6 to John 10:29.

John 10:29 Commentary
Jesus strengthened this promise of security. He reminded His hearers that, because what He did was simply to execute the Father's will—it was the "Father," as well as Himself, who would keep His sheep secure (cf. 17:12).

"The 'hand of Christ' (v. 28) is beneath us, and the 'hand' of the Father is above us. Thus are we secured between the clasped hands of Omnipotence!"[717]

"The greatness of the Father, not of the flock, is the ground of [basis for] the safety of the flock."[718]

"The impossibility of true believers being lost, in the midst of all the temptations which they may encounter, does not consist in their fidelity and decision, but is founded upon the power of God."[719]

No one can steal from God. No one has superior strength or wisdom to overpower or outwit Him (cf. Col. 3:3). No one will snatch them from God (v. 28), and no one can do so either.

Yes"The greatness of the father, not of the flock is the ground of the safety of the flock". But we can't negate the fact that emphasis is also placed on the sheep that listens, follows and are known by God.

Listening and following are essential in a life of a true believer, hence Jesus mentioned those characteristics.

Listening, following, known by God, eternal life, no can can snatch them etc seems to be interconnected in John10: 27-29.

 

[jaybo]

I have no idea what you are talking about.



God Hates the Sin but Love the Sinner ???? ... an abominable lie
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family then why did our Lord tell His disciples, “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father… 23 If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father” if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Proverbs 8:17 “I love them that love Me.” Again; we read, Psalm 5:5 “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, Psalm 7:11 “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (KJV) John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (KJV) —not “shall abide,” but even now— ”abideth on him” (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 7:11; John 3:36b). Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again; is it not evident that the words “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again; it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Further illustrations:

God’s holiness requires that He hate sin (Psalm 5:5b; Psalm 73:20b; Proverbs 6:16-19; Zechariah 8:17).

• God loves His elect because legally they are not sinners. Thus, God’s wrath does not apply to believers for they are legally without sin (see Justification) and sin is the reason for God’s wrath. John 14:31 “I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father”
• Colossians 3:14b … wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best for others].

The Bible tells us that clearly and emphatically that God chastens all those He loves (Hebrews 12:6,8). But it also tells us that He does not chasten all, for some are bastards and not sons (Hebrews 12:6,8).

When God loves a man, it is impossible for that man to be separated from Him (Romans 8:38 - 39). Many will be separated from God in the last day by the words, “Depart from me” (Matthew 7:23). Since the wicked in hell will be separated from God, it is sure that He never loved them at all.

God cannot and does not love sin or sinners, but He does love the righteous (Psalm 11:7; Hebrews 1:9).

• 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love "rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth in the truth.
• Romans 8:34 Who is the one who condemns us? Christ Jesus is the One who died [to pay our penalty], and more than that, who was raised [from the dead], and who is at the right hand of God interceding [with the Father] for us. [Most assuredly the intercession of Christ must be answered in the affirmative. Thus, Christ intercedes for the elect only; otherwise, all would be saved.]
• “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love.
• Romans 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
• The chronological sequence is that God loves us prior to us loving Him and His love is the reason for our love of Him. 1 John 4:19 “We love him, because He first loved us”.

Ephesians 5:25b as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

Jesus sits at God’s right hand interceding for all the Father loves (Romans 8:34 -35; Hebrews 7:22-25). Jesus does not plead for the wicked; He endures them in longsuffering (1 Peter 3:20; Romans 9:22).

But does not God love the whole world; the whole issue with this popular corruption of the verse is the definition of the word “world.” But what of John 12:19; John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14, all of which cast doubt on the meaning of the word WORLD

Amos 3:2 “I have known [chosen, cared for, and loved] only you of all the families of the earth;

Finally, ‘Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire?’ Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!"

Cutting and pasting doesn't do much for your argument.

 

[Judges1318]

Believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

Don't forget to embolden the 'through faith' part so our Freegrace osas friends won't miss that the scriptures say that a person is kept by God through their faith. In contradiction to this, they believe you do not have to have faith in order to be kept by the power of God for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

Yes"The greatness of the father, not of the flock is the ground of the safety of the flock". But we can't negate the fact that emphasis is also placed on the sheep that listens, follows and are known by God.

Listening and following are essential in a life of a true believer, hence Jesus mentioned those characteristics.

Listening, following, known by God, eternal life, no can can snatch them etc seems to be interconnected in John10: 27-29.

1. sheep hear , 2. i know them , 3. they follow

sheep + shepard / shepard + sheep

 

[EleventhHour]

Don't forget to embolden the 'through faith' part so our Freegrace osas friends won't miss that the scriptures say that a person is kept by God through their faith. In contradiction to this, they believe you do not have to have faith in order to be kept by the power of God for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Faith is the instrument.. ...Jesus is the object of faith and HE keeps us.... perpetual persuasion is not what saves.

That is Catholicisim not scriptural