"Not by works" - false!
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John 10:28-29 talks about not being able to be snatched from the hand of Jesus and God.
Hebrews 3:6 talks about being of the household of God if you continue to believe to the very end, the implication being you won't continue in the house of God if you don't continue to believe to the very end.
So, obviously, you can't be snatched from the hand of God/Jesus, but you can certainly not remain in God/Jesus if you stop believing:
"24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24,26
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Hebrews 3:6 talks about being of the household of God if you continue to believe to the very end, the implication being you won't continue in the house of God if you don't continue to believe to the very end.
So, obviously, you can't be snatched from the hand of God/Jesus, but you can certainly not remain in God/Jesus if you stop believing:
"24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24,26
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[QUOTE="Judges1318, post: 4284196,
I have never said a person believes independently of God's influence.
We can't believe the gospel without God's Spirit showing us in our heart that it really is true, and God giving us loads of encouragement to place our trust in the gospel the Spirit has shown us to true.
I like this...makes sense to me.....
I have never said a person believes independently of God's influence.
We can't believe the gospel without God's Spirit showing us in our heart that it really is true, and God giving us loads of encouragement to place our trust in the gospel the Spirit has shown us to true.
I like this...makes sense to me.....
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Love is, both, the desire to do good to someone, and actually expressing that desire to do good in someone's life. God wants to show mercy, for example, to any person, even his enemies, and so he loves all people that way. But he can't actively express that love to some because they are far from him and refuse his love, and so he does not love them in that sense.
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We can go our own way while still believing in him, and if we no longer believe in him. It's when we have gone our own way because of unbelief, not because of weakness or fear or stupidity, that we put our salvation at risk.
He will never leave nor forsake the one who stills believes in him, even if they are stuck in a struggle with the deepest of besetting sins. It's if you stop believing in him that he will indeed (eventually) forsake you and turn you over to your unbelief.
The phrase 'He will never leave you nor forsake you' comes from Deuteronomy 31. If you read that chapter you will see that he will never leave nor forsake his people as long as they do not abandon him and worship idols. If they do that, he said he will in fact forsake them (vs. 17).
He will never leave nor forsake the one who stills believes in him, even if they are stuck in a struggle with the deepest of besetting sins. It's if you stop believing in him that he will indeed (eventually) forsake you and turn you over to your unbelief.
The phrase 'He will never leave you nor forsake you' comes from Deuteronomy 31. If you read that chapter you will see that he will never leave nor forsake his people as long as they do not abandon him and worship idols. If they do that, he said he will in fact forsake them (vs. 17).
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Besides the law of circumcision, that is correct. The law of Moses had not been given yet.
That's why Abraham is such a useful illustration of how a person is justified by faith, and not by works of the law (specifically, the law of circumcision).
Paul explains that the law came after Abraham's justification by faith, and that the law which came later does not nullify or replace the way Abraham was justified by faith prior to the law.
This is all explained in Galatians 3.
The point being, the works that can not justify are the works of the law, not any work a person could possibly do themselves, including believing, as Calvinism teaches.
No, I didn't say works has nothing to do with the law.
I showed you that 'not by works' means 'not by works of the law'.
That's why believing in Christ is not a work of the works gospel.
That being true, there is no reason to insist that 'believing' can not be your believing, or else that would be you trying to save yourself through your own works. Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify, because believing in Christ is not a self-righteous work of the law. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Calvinism is wrong when it says Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify because God does your believing for you. Paul didn't say that was the reason. That is an erroneous conclusion that Calvinism has drawn from Paul's teaching.
That's why Abraham is such a useful illustration of how a person is justified by faith, and not by works of the law (specifically, the law of circumcision).
Paul explains that the law came after Abraham's justification by faith, and that the law which came later does not nullify or replace the way Abraham was justified by faith prior to the law.
This is all explained in Galatians 3.
The point being, the works that can not justify are the works of the law, not any work a person could possibly do themselves, including believing, as Calvinism teaches.
No, I didn't say works has nothing to do with the law.
I showed you that 'not by works' means 'not by works of the law'.
That's why believing in Christ is not a work of the works gospel.
That being true, there is no reason to insist that 'believing' can not be your believing, or else that would be you trying to save yourself through your own works. Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify, because believing in Christ is not a self-righteous work of the law. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Calvinism is wrong when it says Paul doesn't include believing in Christ in the works that can not justify because God does your believing for you. Paul didn't say that was the reason. That is an erroneous conclusion that Calvinism has drawn from Paul's teaching.
Malachi 1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel [b]by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
The difference is in God's judgments which are perfectly righteous. Only He can judge righteously.
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel [b]by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
The difference is in God's judgments which are perfectly righteous. Only He can judge righteously.
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Deuteronomy 31v6,8 Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.” 8 And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”
Deuteronomy 31v17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured.
BOTH of the above verses are written in the SAME chapter of the bible.
- How can both be TRUE ?
The can both be true IF both are CONDITIONAL !
- What then are they conditional upon?
Lets see verse 12
12 Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law,
And what does Moses prophesy from the Lord will happen? Lets see verse 16
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and THEY WILL FORSAKE ME AND BREAK MY COVENANT which I have made with them.
So the condition that God will never leave or forsake the believer is conditional on the Fear of the Lord and Obedience. It is just as true for the Church as it was for Israel of old.
Deuteronomy 31v17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured.
BOTH of the above verses are written in the SAME chapter of the bible.
- How can both be TRUE ?
The can both be true IF both are CONDITIONAL !
- What then are they conditional upon?
Lets see verse 12
12 Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law,
And what does Moses prophesy from the Lord will happen? Lets see verse 16
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and THEY WILL FORSAKE ME AND BREAK MY COVENANT which I have made with them.
So the condition that God will never leave or forsake the believer is conditional on the Fear of the Lord and Obedience. It is just as true for the Church as it was for Israel of old.
Excellent commentary! 
Believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:28) So it's about God's power and God's preservation and not man's power and man's preservation.
As I already stated in post #1,845 -- Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." There is also no implication in those passages about failing to remain partakers of Christ/of His house. So holding fast to the end is the demonstrative evidence that we have become partakers of Christ/we are His house.
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ (just as we see in Hebrews 4:1-3) and the only ones in the end who will be identified as "partakers of Christ/whose house we are" will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.
Believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:28) So it's about God's power and God's preservation and not man's power and man's preservation.As I already stated in post #1,845 -- Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." There is also no implication in those passages about failing to remain partakers of Christ/of His house. So holding fast to the end is the demonstrative evidence that we have become partakers of Christ/we are His house.
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ (just as we see in Hebrews 4:1-3) and the only ones in the end who will be identified as "partakers of Christ/whose house we are" will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.
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John10:27-29
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my father's hand".
In this text, Jesus is responding to the question that was directed to him by the Jewish people. His audience(the Jewish people) did not believe that He was the Christ.
He then gives a distinction between those he considers as his sheep and those who remain in unbelief after having witnessed the miracles performed.
Sheep
1. They listen to the voice of Jesus
2. Jesus Knows them(the sheep have an intimate relationship with Jesus)
3. They follow Jesus
They listen to my voice; they follow me. Notice that Jesus does not say I make them to listen to my voice nor do I force them to follow me. There is an element of free will in the preceding text.
The sheep listen 👂, they are not forced to listen but they choose to listen. they hear a voice with power and great conviction and decide to believe and follow the Master. According to the texts, Jesus gives eternal life to the sheep that listens, follows and is Known by Him.
The description is that of a sheep that has a strong relationship with God.
Jesus
1. He knows them
2. He gives them eternal life
3. They shall never perish
4. No one can snatch them out
God's sovereignty and man's free will seems to be compatible when viewing it through the lens of the above texts.
The sheep cannot snatch itself out because it has made up its mind to listen and follow Jesus. The sheep also have a relationship with God.
The preceding text does not consider a sheep that does not listen, does not follow and does not have a relationship with Jesus. The Bible talks about those kind of sheep elsewhere and not in the above texts.
I also believe that "no one" was spoken in reference to the outside force( others, the devil etc) as opposed to the sheep itself. I believe "no one" has a strong connotation for the outside force. The sheep seems to be doing a good job lol and I know some people will say I am working, well if am working according to this text,then so be it.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my father's hand".
In this text, Jesus is responding to the question that was directed to him by the Jewish people. His audience(the Jewish people) did not believe that He was the Christ.
He then gives a distinction between those he considers as his sheep and those who remain in unbelief after having witnessed the miracles performed.
Sheep
1. They listen to the voice of Jesus
2. Jesus Knows them(the sheep have an intimate relationship with Jesus)
3. They follow Jesus
They listen to my voice; they follow me. Notice that Jesus does not say I make them to listen to my voice nor do I force them to follow me. There is an element of free will in the preceding text.
The sheep listen 👂, they are not forced to listen but they choose to listen. they hear a voice with power and great conviction and decide to believe and follow the Master. According to the texts, Jesus gives eternal life to the sheep that listens, follows and is Known by Him.
The description is that of a sheep that has a strong relationship with God.
Jesus
1. He knows them
2. He gives them eternal life
3. They shall never perish
4. No one can snatch them out
God's sovereignty and man's free will seems to be compatible when viewing it through the lens of the above texts.
The sheep cannot snatch itself out because it has made up its mind to listen and follow Jesus. The sheep also have a relationship with God.
The preceding text does not consider a sheep that does not listen, does not follow and does not have a relationship with Jesus. The Bible talks about those kind of sheep elsewhere and not in the above texts.
I also believe that "no one" was spoken in reference to the outside force( others, the devil etc) as opposed to the sheep itself. I believe "no one" has a strong connotation for the outside force. The sheep seems to be doing a good job lol and I know some people will say I am working, well if am working according to this text,then so be it.
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Honestly speaking, the Calvinist doctrine of salvation is persuasive at a glance. It gives God all the credit but becomes problematic when one delves into it.
It seems like you have made a comparison of the two doctrines(Armenian and Calvinism)and have chosen to bear the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
No doctrine is without it's mysterious.
Initially, I found Calvinism to be persuasive but became problematic for me when I delved into it. Now I am drawn more towards God's sovereignty and man's free will.
It seems like you have made a comparison of the two doctrines(Armenian and Calvinism)and have chosen to bear the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
No doctrine is without it's mysterious.
Initially, I found Calvinism to be persuasive but became problematic for me when I delved into it. Now I am drawn more towards God's sovereignty and man's free will.
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Yes"The greatness of the father, not of the flock is the ground of the safety of the flock". But we can't negate the fact that emphasis is also placed on the sheep that listens, follows and are known by God.
Listening and following are essential in a life of a true believer, hence Jesus mentioned those characteristics.
Listening, following, known by God, eternal life, no can can snatch them etc seems to be interconnected in John10: 27-29.
Listening and following are essential in a life of a true believer, hence Jesus mentioned those characteristics.
Listening, following, known by God, eternal life, no can can snatch them etc seems to be interconnected in John10: 27-29.
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Don't forget to embolden the 'through faith' part so our Freegrace osas friends won't miss that the scriptures say that a person is kept by God through their faith. In contradiction to this, they believe you do not have to have faith in order to be kept by the power of God for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
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